Cream of Wheat filler in the Trapdoor

[KirkD]

I'm loading 500 grain cast bullets in my original Model 1888 Trapdoor .45-70. I read some fascinating articles by Mike Venturino about using cream of wheat filler in the .40-82. Now that has me wondering what kind of accuracy I would get if I used it in my Springfield. I've never had the courage to use Cream of Wheat filler in any of my cartridges (although I do use toilet paper filler in most of my old straight walled black powder cartridges when using smokeless, provided the smokeless powder is no faster than 2400). Has anyone tried cream of wheat filler in the 45-70 under a 500 grain cast bullet?

[The Double D]

Cream of wheat is a granulated soild and works pretty good in straight wall cases. Over time, however since the 45/70 case has a slight taper, youwill find that your cases will grow and will constantly in need of trim and may eventually may separate.

I am sure Mike has already found this out in his bottle neck cartridge...the .40-82 is a bottle neck is it not?

As far improved accuracy, in my experience accuracy does improve with fillers. But that takes some experimentation also. I started with a wad of kapok, then tried weighing wads of kapok. Weighing is more consistant. But you can also have to little and to much filler. I had to play with it to find the sweet spot.

[KirkD]

In my experience with toilet paper fillers (a few thousand rounds in various straight-walled cartridges), the filler does two things: First, it gives more consistent burning of powder (lower E.S. and S.D.) and second, it acts as a gas check, especially in poor bores. It does raise the pressure some, however, usually producing around 100 fps faster velocities for the same powder weight. I am thinking that Cream of Wheat filler would give a more consistent seal all around the base of the plain-base cast bullet, whereas toilet paper may not crumple perfectly to give a uniform seal.

I guess the big question I have is how much increase in velocity I will get, for the same powder weight, if I use Cream of Wheat filler with IMR 3031. I like to stay around 1,200 to 1,300 fps with the 500 grain bullet.

[Boz330]

Cream of wheat is a granulated soild and works pretty good in straight wall cases. Over time, however since the 45/70 case has a slight taper, youwill find that your cases will grow and will constantly in need of trim and may eventually may separate.

I am sure Mike has already found this out in his bottle neck cartridge...the .40-82 is a bottle neck is it not?

As far improved accuracy, in my experience accuracy does improve with fillers. But that takes some experimentation also. I started with a wad of kapok, then tried weighing wads of kapok. Weighing is more consistant. But you can also have to little and to much filler. I had to play with it to find the sweet spot.

Douglas, it is more like a straight taper to a 40 cal neck. Basicly what I did for mine was used 45-100 cases to make the 40-82s. There isn't a shoulder like you may be thinking of.

Bob

[oldhickory]

I've never used Cream of Wheat as it adds weight to what's being pushed out the bore. I've always gone with a "tuft" of Dacron, it's all but weight-less and is completely consumed with the powder.

[Boz330]

So is Kapok but it isn't consumed by the ignition. It is all natural though.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Kirk you grew up on a farm. I'm sure you remember how the grain augers flighting was always shiny and smooth, and how over time it wore down.
Now just stop and think about the slow, no pressure results on that hard steel auger flighting, and then stop and think about the not so slow , and not so low pressure of that breakfast cereal getting jammed down the bore of that fine old rifle,when you yank the trigger, the firing pin spanks the primer, and the primer scares the beggeebers out of the powder..

[KirkD]

Don, you got a point about the grain augers. Those interiors were nice and shiny alright, and the screw edges did slowly wear down. Now that does raise another question ..... which is more abrasive, Cream of Wheat or toilet paper? I've seen paper sand right through the finish of furniture in just a short move if the paper was sandwiched between two pieces of furniture. Cloth, on the other hand is not at all abrasive. Maybe some sort of cotton batting is the best.

Anyway, just for an experiment, I've loaded up five rounds with 30 grains of IMR 3031, 1/4 teaspoon of cream of wheat filler under a 500 grain boolit. Hope to get to the range to try it out tomorrow.

[chuebner]

I'm loading 500 grain cast bullets in my original Model 1888 Trapdoor .45-70.

Kirk,

I have the same rifle and I have experimented with different BP loadings. My bullet is from a Rapine .460500 mold and casts at .461. Best hundred yard load is 50gr (volume) of GOEX 2F or Schuetzen 2F with 20gr (volume) cornmeal. Load is compressed .525 below case mouth and bullet seated. I believe OAL is 2.900. Recoil is light and accuracy is acceptable for this old trooper. I tried COW several years ago and found something I didn't like when I tried to breakdown some cartridges. The COW formed a solid plug that was all but impossible to break apart. I believe this solid plug is what leads to case stretching. On a whim I broke down several rounds loaded with cornmeal and the compressed cornmeal came apart easily leading me to believe this was better for my cases.
Best smokeless load is 22gr. 5744, no fillers or wads, shoots to same point of aim as BP load.

Have fun,
Charlie

[KirkD]

Charlie, you are right about COW becoming a compressed plug. I took apart a few of my freshly loaded cartridges, and the COW had, indeed formed a plug. Perhaps corn meal is better.

[405]

Can't argue with any of the posts about fillers.

I always approach using fillers with great caution. I have found them to aid accuracy in some loads and see no gain in accuracy in others. Same for bore leading... sometimes it helps sometimes not. I'm afraid of using long columns of COW not so much because of the added weight but because of the added friction thus added unknown pressure. Shouldn't cause much problem using a dab of COW taking up quarter inch of powder column length ahead of black powder so is not much different than using fiber over-powder wads. But filling the long, large space between a load of fast smokeless powder and the bullet with something like COW seems a little tricky! Very low density tufts of tissue or dacron fiber seems to make more sense ahead of small volumes of smokeless. I will not use materials like COW that can form a hard plug when compressed in bottleneck type cartridges.

One material (others have much more experience using this than I) that shows promise is shot buffer. For cast shooting I've tried it over smokeless loads in both the 32-40 and 405. The buffer I've used is from BPI and is the coarser material with a dry lubricant added. So far good results over light charges of 4759 or 5744. I first charge the case with a light charge of the SP then pick a dipper of sufficient volume to fill the rest of the case with buffer to within 1/4" of the mouth. Then seat bullet. Makes for a light compression of the whole column. Time will tell whether or not it is superior to fluffy dacron filler.

[KirkD]

I agree with the caution. I never use fillers with powders faster than 2400 and never in 'real' bottleneck cases. I don't count the 44-40 as a 'real' bottleneck.

[NickSS]

I loaded up a bunch of 45-55 carbine loads to try in my Sharps rifle. The load was a Lee HB 400 gr lubed with my own BP lube over 55 gr of FFG and 10 gr (volume measure) of corn meal. I have shot several hundred of them to date and they seam to be accurate out to 200 yards and reduce recoil compared to full power loads. I have noticed that after shooting 50 rounds there is a rim of baked on cornmeal surrounding the muzzle of my sharps. Does not affect accuracy though.

[The Double D]

Douglas, it is more like a straight taper to a 40 cal neck. Basicly what I did for mine was used 45-100 cases to make the 40-82s. There isn't a shoulder like you may be thinking of.

Bob

Bob,

Now I remember...its a straight taper like a 30-30 neck, wider at the bottom than at the mouth, kinda a cartridge that is all neck.

TP can slug up, but it usually blows to shreds.

Don't use a tuft of dacron. It will act like a wad. Compress as much as you can get in the case.

Forgot about the polishing effect CoW, I usually preach that.

None of these fillers are consumed when fired,they are all blown out the barrel. Some are shredded or pulverized or just blown dow range. Dacron is just blown down range, and if you don't find some you aren't using enough.

[KirkD]

By the way, here's a photo of some 40-82 cartridges I re-formed from Starline 45-90 brass. The shiny top part is from thinning the case wall so that they would chamber a .410 diameter bullet. I thinned it by throwing the case in a chuck and holding a fine file to the outside of the case as it spun. Works beautifully and is a lot easier than trying to thin the case wall from the inside.


So Corn meal looks to be be filler of choice rather than CoW. One thing, however, it occurred to me that grain augers handle whole grain, with the husks contacting the metal. Isn't C0W just the softer interior with the tougher husks removed? Still, I don't like the CoW plugs I found when I pulled my bullets. I think I'll pull the rest and reload with corn meal. However, I'm wondering if it will seal as good, as the corn meal I have seems coarser than CoW.

[chuebner]

However, I'm wondering if it will seal as good, as the corn meal I have seems coarser than CoW.

Kirk,
My local grocery carries two granulations of cornmeal, fine and course. I use fine for BP revolver loading and course for BP cartridge reduced loads. The fine ground cornmeal makes the same kind of plug when compressed as Cream of Wheat so I only it in my cap & ball revolvers.

Charlie

[rockrat]

You might want to think about using Grits instead of cornmeal. It is a little coarser than regualr cornmeal. Might bulk up better and have less weight. I guess you could consider it an extra coarse cornmeal

[The Double D]

All the cereals will slug up...cornmeal included.

[uscra112]

Don't do it.

The extensive testing that Col. Harrison did for his excellent articles in American Rifleman in the '50s and '60s showed that using Cream of Wheat as filler for smokeless loads raised pressures dramatically.

Far better to use the Dacron or kapok tufts, and keep your trapdoor intact.

[hiram]

I seem to remember about possible 'ringing' in a chamber when using a filler in a straight case.