Cream of Wheat filler in the Trapdoor

[Molly]

Molly,
If I read what you wrote correctly, you are using the dacron as a filler and CoW as a under bullets wad, is that correct?
Interesting concept. Bet it seals better than a card.

Hi DD,

I really hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. And it seals so well that there's no need to lube or GC the bullets either!

I'd always thought of it as the CoW being the filler, and the dacron just as a sort of spacer to keep it at the base of the bullet. I suspect you'd get exctly the same thing if you just used a cardboard or felt wad to hold the CoW in place. In retrospect, the only reason I didn't use a wad was that I was planning tests with bottlenecked cases while putting the 45-70's together, and naturally, a cardboard wad wouldn't work with them, while dacron worked with either.

[Molly]

Molly... New tests under way. ... Maybe 10-12 days (sorry guys but I've got to go away for 6 days to work) before I report back, ok? Larry Gibson

Ah so, reality rear ugly head again, eh grasshopper?

You have absolutely NO idea how patient I can be when someone is trying to help me.

[The Double D]

I had a series of exchanges of emails with Johnan Laubser of AA several years ago when I was building smokeless loads for the Martini. XMP5744 would misfire without a filler. Add the kapock and it still misfired until I changed to a magnum primer. Emailed Johan and he said that magnum primers were not needed with AA5744. That didn't click until I went to a gunshop to get some more XMP5744 and noticed a slight difference in the color of the label the different prefix AA. When I got home I compared the two powders and they were a different color.

I loaded the last of the XMP and some of the AA and shot them across the chronograph and they were vastly different.

Later I loaded some of the AA without filler and with filler and standard primer. The w/o filler still misfired. The standard primer fired just fine.

Emailed Johan and he said XMP and AA were the same. He suggested perhaps the issue with ignition had to do with different lots, . . I know about retesting loads from lot to lot especially with loads near maximum or target loads. But I have never heard of differences in ignition. To me that is a pretty significant change.

Molly, I will carry your theory one step further. You say that the CoW serves to protect the base of the bullet from the flame and thus no need for a GC or lube. I have no doubt your theory is correct. But I don't believe it is just the sealing effect, I believe the scouring effect of CoW has a part in it.

Several years ago I built 4 .219 Donaldson Wasps. For each gun I had to make 250 rounds of brass. I used Cow for the final form step, under a bullet. As I fired I also did fire and clean break in process. fire one 5 times and clean after every shot, Fire two, 5 times and clean after every two. etc. I usually conituinue this routine for 100 rounds. I noticed right off the start that I wasn't getting any of the copper fouling that I normally see when breaking in a new barrel. After all the fire forming the rifles like every gun I have ever fired CoW had bores that were bright and shiny. I still have one of these guns and shoot it regular and it is a smooth clean shooting barrel and does not foul.

I have a nice Westly Richards 577/450 Martini that I picked up in SA, that was used with black powder and has a very rough black bore. I am going to try to photograph the bore before and after firing and see if the bore is "brightened" by shooting CoW. I don't expect much and certainly not what might occur when fire lapped. It's one of those "why not" experiments.

I'll report back.

[Molly]

Hi DD,

> Molly, I will carry your theory one step further. You say that the CoW serves to protect the base of the bullet from the flame and thus no need for a GC or lube. I have no doubt your theory is correct. But I don't believe it is just the sealing effect, I believe the scouring effect of CoW has a part in it.

> Several years ago I built 4 .219 Donaldson Wasps. ... I still have one of these guns and shoot it regular and it is a smooth clean shooting barrel and does not foul.

Doug, I'm still not convinced that the CoW has a serious scouring effect in the abrasive sense. The CoW plug - hard though it is - is still softer than steel by orders of magnitude. I've been wrong before, but I'd be very surprised if what happened wasn't more along the lines of the CoW preventing hot gas from ironing jacket residue in the bore.

Check my logic on this: It's pretty well accepted that jacketed fouling is caused by a combination of jacket abrasion as the bullet goes down the bore and some by leakage of incadescent gas past the bullet. This gas is hotter than the Mp of steel, and should have little trouble melting copper scrapings and brazing them to the bore itself. This leaves an even rougher bore, etc.

Now introduce a CoW plug: Now there is NO escape of incadescent gas past the bullet. The plug is hard too, so it can sweep up jacketed fouling residues before they are brazed to the bore. The only real effect is to polish the bore by the passage of the bullet. And as the bore is polished, it becomes less prone to accumulating jacketed fouling. So more shooting with CoW could lead to smooth, non-fouling bores without abrasive scouring.

Seems to me that this would account for your observations without requiring any abrasiveness on the part of the CoW. Am I off base somewhere?


> I have a nice Westly Richards 577/450 Martini that I picked up in SA, that was used with black powder and has a very rough black bore. I am going to try to photograph the bore before and after firing and see if the bore is "brightened" by shooting CoW. I don't expect much and certainly not what might occur when fire lapped. It's one of those "why not" experiments.

Why not indeed! Give it a good conventional cleaning first, so that any cleaning or polishing that IS done by the CoW isn't just ordinary fouling removed by the plug.

[longbow]

I see the 577/450 mentioned again and had a thought (treat it gently they can be few and far between!).

The Double D mentioned earlier that he was getting case stretching and it occurs to me that if the rimmed cartridge is full length sized then loaded to below the case neck and filler added that case stretching is likely going to be exaggerated because the filler "plug" will push up against the unsupported shoulder and probably pull on the body of the body of the cartridge.

Without the filler, gas pressure would be evenly distributed and be forcing the brass larger in diameter while also pushing the shoulder ahead.

I have not noticed significant stretch in my .303 brass but I am only neck sizing so the shoulder is always supported.

Like I said, just a thought.

Longbow

[The Double D]

I see the 577/450 mentioned again and had a thought (treat it gently they can be few and far between!).

The Double D mentioned earlier that he was getting case stretching and it occurs to me that if the rimmed cartridge is full length sized then loaded to below the case neck and filler added that case stretching is likely going to be exaggerated because the filler "plug" will push up against the unsupported shoulder and probably pull on the body of the body of the cartridge.

Without the filler, gas pressure would be evenly distributed and be forcing the brass larger in diameter while also pushing the shoulder ahead.

I have not noticed significant stretch in my .303 brass but I am only neck sizing so the shoulder is always supported.

Like I said, just a thought.

Longbow

Such a novice mistake could indeed lead to problems. But pushing the shoulder back excessively ususally manifests its self as a case body separation and not as a lengthing or stretching of the neck.

Beside haveing been around long enough to know better, I am neck sizing only.

The other telling feature, stop using CoW neck stretching stops

As to the scouring effect, perhaps a better description is burnishing. And remember the grain in the grain elevator and the smooth finish on the gratings.. The grain may still be in its hull, but that hull is still softer than steel. If you feel that steel you will find the surface is extremely smooth almost glass like. That is burnished. It'd not an abrasive finish at all. It's the pressure that does the work.

Load a sand blaster up and I guarentee it will peel the paint as well as the road salt rust off your car in a second.

It doesn't take heat to create fouling. Demonstrate this to your self. Rub a jacketed bullet on the out side of your gun barrel a see if it doesn't leave a mark. A matte blue gun will be even worse. Rougher the surface the more it marks. Next take a pinch of CoW and rub the mark and it comes right off.

[Larry Gibson]

Latest on test COW pressure test.

Sorry guys, but things have gotten in the way. I did pick up a lb of new 5744 and am ready to load. I have to go back to NC through the 18th so it will have to wait until I get back. I will get the retest done just be a couple weeks is all.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

I know that you don't want to hear this, but I stay away from fillers entirely.

I have shot BPCR's extensively and would vote for straight black powder. However, if dealing with the fouling bothers you, you might want to try duplex loads. 10% smokeless (I prefer RL-7) to 90% black powder by weight works beautifully. The Lyman Cast Bullet handbook has pressure data for duplex loads, if you are interested. You end up with slightly more velocity than straight black (100 fps or so) but they shoot clean. They do NOT require wiping nor use of a blow tube, either. After a whole day of shooting (I have shot 200 rounds in a day) you just clean with a good black powder solvent. Two-three wet patches, a couple of dry patches, then a good preservative and you are "good to go".

Dale53

[Larry Gibson]

I conducted the retest today. The loads were loaded the same and the test rifle was the same Siamese Mauser. The 5744 was a new pound recently purchased. The new retest data is in bold and under the previous test data where applicable. I fired 5 shot of the control load and it performed the same as in the previous test.

Data is listed as;

Load wad/filler FPS/SD/ES psi(M43) in thousands, hundreds/SD/ES(0’s left off) group size; ctc

Notes are listed with loads where appropriate.

Control load was the standard load I use in my H&R Officers Model TD with this bullet. It is a smokeless duplication of the service rifle load of 1873 with the Midway cast bullet.

36-milsurp 4895......¾ Dacron filler.....1391/15/38......22,4/1,2/4.3......2.3” for 10 shots

Note; the above is an accurate load in the OM and also in this rifle. This was a 10 shot group. The following test groups are 5 shots except where noted.

25-5744......no filler.............................1166/4/13 ..............18,4/7/1,9........2.1”
25-5744…….no filler…………………………………1138/6/14 ……………….22,0/4/11 ………2.03”

25-5744....... ¾ Dacron filler .............. 1226/4/13.......... 22,4/9/2,1......... 1.45”
25-5744…….. ¾ Dacron filler ……………….1370/23/53…………25/16/41…………….1.95”

25-5744......... 2.5 gr Dacron compressed........ 1245/5/10...... 22,3/6/1,5...... 2.3”
25-5744……….. 2.5 gr Dacron compressed………. 1240/11/30……26,7/6/1,8………..2.1”

25-5744....... ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler........ 1288/5/14...... 27,1/9/2,5....... 3.7”

25-5744……….COW filler (to 1/8” of case mouth)..1294/11/28…..33/9/2,1………..3.22”

35-3031...... no filler.................... 941/21/45............ 13,6/7/1.5.......... 3”
Note; this is for 4 shots with no effort made to “position” the powder. I thought this was pretty low data and was suspecting if I had 3031 or 4891. On the 5th shot I elevated the barrel and that shot gave 1223 fps and hit 9” higher. I then shot the next 5 shots elevating the barrel after loading before each shot.

35-3031........ no filler/muzzle elevated............ 1203/31/71........ 18,4/1,5/3,6.......... 3”
35-3031........ ¾ Dacron filler................. 1230/18/51.......... 19,1/5/1,2 ......... 2.1”
35-3031………. 3/4 Dacron filler…………………1218/17/42…………..19,5/7/1,8…………….2.25”

35-3031......... ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler ......1179/9/26............ 19,0/6/1,4....... 3.5”
35-3031………. ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler (Lee 065)..1179/11/27…..25,5/1,0/2,4…...3.45”
35-3031………. ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler (Lee 069)..1183/14/33…..25,5/7/1,9……..3.3”
35-3031………. ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler (Lee 108)..1211/8/19……..26,1/5/1,4……..2.75”
35-3031………. ¾ Dacron wad + COW filler (Lee 129)..1205/24/59……26,8/1,1/2,8…..1.85”

My observations; the new 5744 produced consistently higher pressures with the same loads as with the old 5744. Accuracy remained consistent. The load with only COW as a filler produced a pressure above the 28,000 psi limit for trapdoors.

The COW levels with the 3031 loads (shown with Lee dipper # used) gave levels of 1/3 bullet seating depth (compression), 2/3s and level with case mouth. Accuracy improved with the greater amount of COW and compression. Added during edit; The load with the 065 dipper of COW was to base of bullet with slight compression.

I’ll leave the rest of the story to you guys.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Dale 53

I also prefer duplex loads in my original trapdoor. I uae 7 gr 4759 under 54 gr GOEX Cartridge and a Rapne 460500 bullet. Excellent accuacy, no need for blow tube and I also can shoot all day without cleaning. For smoke less loads I'll stick with the 4895 and dacron filler. Works for me.

Larry Gibson

[405]

Thank you Larry!
The new data tracks similarly with the first run. This IS useful info for those who shoot smokeless in the older BPCR guns.... Win 73s, 76s, 85s, 86s along with the trapdoors and the rolling blocks, etc. I'll have to copy it to table form and ruminate on it.

[Dixie Slugs]

Just a couple of thoughts on fillers. A few years ago I decided to try cut wads made from styro meat trays, I made some wad cutters for old screw-in chokes. Made up some and sent some to friends...that worked great. Did not blown to pieces...compressed nice and flat. I have often thought they would work great for fillers in centerfire staright cases....no weight.
Just some random thoughts.
Regards, James

[Bob Maerdian]

Don't do it.

The extensive testing that Col. Harrison did for his excellent articles in American Rifleman in the '50s and '60s showed that using Cream of Wheat as filler for smokeless loads raised pressures dramatically.

Far better to use the Dacron or kapok tufts, and keep your trapdoor intact.

Charlie Dell did a number of expirements ringing chambers with both Dacron and kapok. I have ruined (ringed) two 30-06 Springfield barrels using Dacron tufts, years ago. I NEVER use case fillers now!

Bob

[.22-10-45]

I have an original Ballard chambered in .25-25 Stevens. Since it has a cast action, only Swiss 3FG is used. Wanting to experiment with slightly reduced charges, I used COW to fill extra space to bullet base. 2 out of 3 cases were lengthened 1/4"!..3rd. seperated at neck. Now these are turned from solid on CNC lathes by RMC Co. and I suspect the fine machining marks inside neck were catching the COW. I switched to Puff-Lon and had no more trouble.

[Larry Gibson]

Charlie Dell used the Dacron and Kapok as wads, not fillers. There is a difference.

Larry Gibson

[Turkeygunner]

When loading a 450 grn pure lead pp bullet, I go by the Hogdon reloading site and experienced all kind of hang-fires and delayed ignition. I decided to get some cotton balls, but a full cotton ball was too much so I cut them in two with scissors. I loaded 38 grns of benchmark and pressed the cotton down to the powder with a wad between the cotton and the powder. No more ignition problems, but no appreciable accuracy either. Then I decided on a slower powder and used 4064 within the recommended charge weight. I pushed the cotton down against the powder with no wad and compressed with a little tool I fashioned from a 7/16 bolt using a nut for a stop so I could set the depth just right. It would spring back about 1/16" with the 1/2 cotton ball (4.3 grns) and the bullet did the rest of the work. Result was 3 bullet holes touching each other at 112 yds. The paper patches were water proofed and lubricated with graphite flake.

[Chill Wills]

Be careful of wads pushed down against the powder. A fluffy cotton ball becomes a wad when you take the air out of it by 'pushing it down' on the powder with 'little tool'.