7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[10mmShooter]

Hi Everyone not to revive an old thread,

But I'm seeking guidance so I dont re-invent the wheel, I have used the seach feature and been all over the internet and this is really the only area that seems to have any info on shooting cast bullets from a M1a...and have the weapon cycle correctly(without modifing of the gas system or shooting it single shot) and not damage it.

Heres where I am.

I have chose a "heavier" 180g Saceo #305 mold size .311, appears to be a "shorter" .30 cal bullet so I can stay off the lands(dont want to jam a lead round in and have to eject it and then dump powder all over the action as Bruce has described. Also I'm concerned about have to seat the bullet too deep and gas check below the neck of brass, its my understading this a big no no for gas checks ?? I'm willing to give up a touch of accuracy to avoid that issue.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137...nose-gas-check

I chose the .311 sizing so I can size down to .310 if I need to or I go to .311. I was hoping to use my go powder IMR 4895, but I'm concerned I would have to drop the charge to low and leave to much empty case volume.

So for powder I think I've settled on SR-4759 since it was used in reduced 30-06 loads and should give me a nearly full case of powder at around 22-27grains which will be the max loading based on my old Lyman manual and similar shape/weight bullets.

I'm open to suggestions, I wish I could use my stock IMR4895 powder Also I know I will need to use gas checks, I think Hornaday make the preferred checks?? Is this correct? Also I'm be using Thompson Blue angel lube have plenty and it will be more that sufficet for 1800fps velocitys.

[seabreeze133]

My best load was with a150 gr cast boolit similar to the Lyman 31141 GC, 29.5 gr H335, and WLR primers Remington brass. About 1950 fps and 7/8x3/4 10 groups at 50 yds. don't remember the 100 yd groups. Cycled the action and stacked the brass about 3'rt and 2' to front. No leading w/water quenched boolits.

The mold is an NEI aluminum and I think the # was 47, but not sure as it is in storage. Not sure if it is still a regular production mold, but if not they may be able to make u one.

The rifle (sold it) wa a Fed Ordinance M14 w/chinese parts, chrome lined bbl, nat match sights, glass bedded and trigger job.

Excellent offhand practice load at 100.

Good luck

Don

Hi Everyone not to revive an old thread,

But I'm seeking guidance so I dont re-invent the wheel, I have used the seach feature and been all over the internet and this is really the only area that seems to have any info on shooting cast bullets from a M1a...and have the weapon cycle correctly(without modifing of the gas system or shooting it single shot) and not damage it.

Heres where I am.

I have chose a "heavier" 180g Saceo #305 mold size .311, appears to be a "shorter" .30 cal bullet so I can stay off the lands(dont want to jam a lead round in and have to eject it and then dump powder all over the action as Bruce has described. Also I'm concerned about have to seat the bullet too deep and gas check below the neck of brass, its my understading this a big no no for gas checks ?? I'm willing to give up a touch of accuracy to avoid that issue.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137...nose-gas-check

I chose the .311 sizing so I can size down to .310 if I need to or I go to .311. I was hoping to use my go powder IMR 4895, but I'm concerned I would have to drop the charge to low and leave to much empty case volume.

So for powder I think I've settled on SR-4759 since it was used in reduced 30-06 loads and should give me a nearly full case of powder at around 22-27grains which will be the max loading based on my old Lyman manual and similar shape/weight bullets.

I'm open to suggestions, I wish I could use my stock IMR4895 powder Also I know I will need to use gas checks, I think Hornaday make the preferred checks?? Is this correct? Also I'm be using Thompson Blue angel lube have plenty and it will be more that sufficet for 1800fps velocitys.

[Piedmont]

10 mm shooter, I think SR 4759 will be too fast burning to cycle the action and no, you won't be filling the case at those charges. Use your 4895, with or without dacron. I've not done the semiauto .308 loads but have with a 7.5 French semi which is very similar. Of the powders I played with 4895 was the most satisfactory (all this with cast loads). You run into action cycling problems with some of the faster burners and have to load to high pressures to get cycling.

The gas check below the neck bugaboo is mostly a problem at high pressures. If it obturates below the neck you can visualize how that would really mess things up. Slower burners will both operate at lower pressures (at satisfactory load levels) and be more gentle on the base due to the gradual pressure curve.

I suggest you reread this whole thread a couple of times. Follow everything Bruce does and the reasonings behind it. It made loading the 7.5 French for a semiauto easy for me. Bruce has done us all a great service with this thread.

[seabreeze133]

I have a new rifle ordered that is scheduled to be delivered NLT Tomorrow (8/27) and was planning to use my M14 load of 29.5 gr H335, WLR primer, RP brass and the NEI 152 gr boolit. Then I think I saw a Bruce comment about loads for M1 being maybe different than M14. Can't find it.

Any suggestions on load start point?

Thanks

Don

[seabreeze133]

Rifle arrived. It is a CMP 308 Special and appears to be hand built. Criterion barrel, screwed and glued upper hand guard, 5.5 # SMOOTH trigger, sights that work and are tight and repeat.

The 29.5 gr H335 load did not cycle and the group was only fair. This was with about 50 rds total fired. I am going to try H4895 and Re7 w/same boolit after a suitable breakin.

DB

I have a new rifle ordered that is scheduled to be delivered NLT Tomorrow (8/27) and was planning to use my M14 load of 29.5 gr H335, WLR primer, RP brass and the NEI 152 gr boolit. Then I think I saw a Bruce comment about loads for M1 being maybe different than M14. Can't find it.

Any suggestions on load start point?

Thanks

Don

[Wayne S]

Bruce,
Great info about loading for the M1A, thank you, Larry, great info on the X die, thank you as well.
I noticed that the Saeco 305 was the heaviest bullet used, I had hoped before reading this that I could use the 311365, 311299 or the Saeco 301 [RG-4]. After reading making a SWAG, that these bullets will require deep seating, putting the GC below the case neck because of the long nose sections might hit the rifling and hinder full case seating. Looks like the Saeco 311 and the RCBS 165 Sil. will be the bullets to start with.
Anyone have load data with either of these ??

[BruceB]

Howdy, Wayne.

I received your PM, but thought I might as well answer here.

There is some limited data early in the thread for 311284, over 200 grains, and 311467 runs around 180 IIRC.....467 was used in quite a few loads.

Good luck.

[Wayne S]

Bruce,
did the 311467 require seating so the GC was below the case neck ? What is the nose Dia. of your Saeco 305 ? mine is .302 just past the ojive. So when my M1A arrives it will be a lot of testing of different bullets to see what the seating depths will be so the GC is not below the case neck and allow for 100% chambering

Wayne

[BulletFactory]

I have been loading for this rifle a little bit, I am using x-dies as well. What are the first signs that the brass is too old to reload?

I have been also converting 30-06 brass, and I was curious to know how long those cases would last.

168gr SMK BTHP
41.5gr Hodgdon 4895
CCI Lg Rifle
OAL 2.800

When I load 30-06, I use 37gr instead. The brass is thicker, you can tell, because if you put the std. 41.5, it fills the case noticeably more.

[Wayne S]

Just picked up my M1A. Did a quick seating depth test to see if anything heavy I had would work.
311365 has 1/4"below the case neck, and 311299 the same to keep the nose from engraving to far into the lands, don't know how that will effect accuracy,or ejecting the case after firing, but the test round was HARD to eject.
Next test's will be the RCBS 165 & 200 Sil, Saeco 301 & 311.
What had your experiences with having to seat .25" below the case neck ??

[BulletFactory]

http://m14forum.com/

[Wayne S]

http://m14forum.com/

SO, what does THATsite have to do with my question about seating cast bullets below the case neck and the results from that on accuracy

[BulletFactory]

The people on that site specialize the M1A platform, the reloaders there have specific experience with that rifle. More than likely, those specific molds as well.

[Wayne S]

1. Very doubtful that anyone on that site would ever consider shooting cast in their M1A / M-14. so they wouldn't know about the undesired situation of having the base of the bullet below the case neck ,And 2. Mention trying to shoot cast bullets in an M1A /M-14 on that site and one would be ridiculed and compared to the Anti Christ

[BruceB]

Some time ago, I raised the subject of the cast bullet on the M14 Forum.

It was well-received, and a decent conversation ensued.

There is certainly very little knowledge of CBs on that site, but an active interest does exist in some quarters.

Do a search there for "cast bullet" and see what comes up. You will NOT learn anything new; as usual, THIS is the site for finding info in cast bullets!

[Wayne S]

, THIS is the site for finding info in cast bullets!

Thanks Bruce B, I'll do that as as to your comment about this site and info on cast bullets, I'm beginning to wonder, I've posed the question about the results of seating the bases .25" below the case mouth and the only response I got was basically "get a shorter bullet"

[BruceB]

I reckon I missed that one....

The critical point is NOT a specific overall length.

First, I've never encountered any problems from seating the gascheck at or below the neck bottom...or even the shoulder.

Second, in the M1/M1A rifles, it IS critical to prevent the bullet from touching the rifling! That will impede the smooth chambering of the round, and very possibly increase the possibility of slam-fires, with the primer igniting before full lock-up is achieved.

So, do your own testing.....it is YOUR rifle, bullets, dies etc.

Start with the bullet seated well out in a dummy round. It should NOT chamber fully. Very gradually, seat that bullet a wee bit deeper in steps, trying the "round" in the chamber each time the bullet is seated deeper. When the action DOES close fully, see if the dummy round will fit in the magazine.... it may need a tad deeper-seating yet. Rifling contact will be shown by the bright marks on the bullet nose. Make more dummies if need be.

When you are satisfied that the cartridge WILL chamber freely with the bullet thus seated, without rifling contact, AND fit the magazine as well, MEASURE the over-all length and write it down! This routine must be followed for every different bullet design you want to try. Free chambering (without rifling contact) is CRITICAL.

All other considerations are secondary. Keeping good records (you DO keep records somewhere, I hope) will save you from repeating this routine. Remember that not all moulds with the same design numbers will drop identical bullets, so do this test anytime you have a new mould, too. (I had four 311291 moulds, and NONE of them dropped bullets that looked the same as the others!)

[Wayne S]

THANK YOU, that's what I wanted to know. I make "dummy" seating rounds from my 22 Hornet on up.
I'll let you know what my testing shows

Again
Thank you

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks Bruce B, I'll do that as as to your comment about this site and info on cast bullets, I'm beginning to wonder, I've posed the question about the results of seating the bases .25" below the case mouth and the only response I got was basically "get a shorter bullet"

Not specific to the M1A, but in answer to this question generically in rifles and handguns with neck-and-shoulder case designs--I haven't seen an issue with boolit bases having seating depths into the powder space, gas checked or plain based. I can't see that it matters a bit.

[Wayne S]

The NOE 311299 seams to group better that the 311365 or the RCBS 200 Sil. but it's early in my testing, these were shot out of a "loaded" M1A equipped with a 6 x 24 X scope and shot at 100 yds. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know how fast they were going, alloy is 1.5% tin, 5% Anty, , basically 3-1 and water droped. sized .310. The load on the Rt. is 20.5 223