There is a warm fuzzy feeling that comes from shooting fairly accurate cast boolits from my M1A, and having it cycle normally. I'm hoping to get the groups down to 2 MOA. You can tell by the report, recoil, and cyclic action that it is very gentle on the gun. Not paying $30/box of bullets is another plus!!
Last edited by fatelvis; 02-06-2014 at 04:35 PM.
I shoot so that I can handload.
All the years I shot High Power never heard of anyone that did not warn of using slow powders in gas guns. 748, 4985, 2520, 4064 and varget were commonly used. Shoot slower powders if you like, I just know none of the Distiquished Rifle guys I knew never did.
If you can measure chamber and port pressure, anything within specs is, well within specs.
I cant so stick to loads and powders recommended.
HOW MANY TIMES must it be repeated????Originally Posted by cpt Dan Blodgett
Your "Distinguished" guys NEVER, repeat: NEVER fired a cast bullet in their match rifles. NEVER. I will guarantee that. Ergo, they may know everything about jacketed loads, but ZERO about cast loads in their rifles.
The rifle operates on GAS PORT PRESSURE. If that pressure is in the normal operating zone, the rifle will operate safely and correctly.
Within rather loose limits (such as: 5744 to H and IMR 4831), IT DOESN'T MATTER how that pressure is generated, or by what powder, or its speed of burning. If the port pressure is correct, and chamber pressure is safe, the recipe is fine insofar as safety is concerned.
The manner in which the rifle operates is its own PROOF of whether or not the pressure is correct. These are not bolt-actions, which leave their users largely in the dark as to what pressure levels are being generated....until it's too late.
My own M1A rifle is now leaning hard on 7000 rounds fired. About 6200 of those rounds were cast-bullet loads, and the vast majority of those cast loads functioned perfectly in the semi-auto mode. Apart from maybe operating a bit more smoothly after all that shooting, the rifle shows NO wear of any sort, nor any ill effects from all that "non-HANDBOOK" shooting. My purpose in starting this thread was precisely to explore the use of CAST BULLETS in the M1A , because so little information existed on the subject.
"But, but, but....it's not in the (sob) haaaaandbooook(sniff, wail)." Tough. Use the info, or don't use the info. Just don't preach at ME. MY loads in this thread were carefully created, and I am very familiar with the rifle type and how it works.. Many handloaders have found the data to be useful and SAFE.
Maybe some of you should just go back to the sainted handbooks and store-bought jacketed bullets, and never look over the fence or down the road....but this is CAST BOOLITS, dedicated to the use and development of cast-bullet shooting...... DEVELOPMENT. EXPERIMENTATION. MODIFICATION. INNOVATION.
Foreign words to some people in this hobby!
Last edited by BruceB; 01-05-2012 at 08:53 PM.
Regards from BruceB in Nevada
"The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen
Amen my Lead-loving Brother! Lol
I shoot so that I can handload.
And don't shoot handloads in Glocks, either! Gaston would be so scandalized.
I really push the envelope--not only have I shot hundreds of cast boolit rounds through a Glock 21, I've also fired a significant number of cast boolits through Bruce's M1A. I'm still alive--no mushroom clouds, fallout, nuclear winter, or anything untoward. Cast boolit shooting has DIFFERING RULES--some are more lax, others are far more restrictive than the caveats surrounding jacketed bullet handcrafting.
This is not "new" information in all cases--it was fairly well known through the 1930s, but after WWII bulletmakers really got busy and built the handloading market around jacketed bullets. By the late 1960s, jacketed bullets for most handgun calibers became readily available, so bullet casting and the use of cast bullets (esp. in rifles) largely died out.
This board in its ongoing ideations is pledged to the idea of re-discovering that lost knowledge and to advancing the craftwork. I don't think Bruce posted his information to be reckless. Rather, he discovered an attribute of the M1A rifle--explored it in depth--presented and discussed it here--and MANY others have duplicated his work successfully. To date, I know of no instance in which an M1A rifle using Bruce's data has been damaged in any way.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I get my new Christmas gift SA NM M1A out of jail on Monday. I will fire some J-word projectiles for break in and then switch to boolits for most of the rest of fun. Thank you Bruce for providing some starting point loads for my own experimentation.
ph4570
My thanks again for all this hard work on our behalf. I brought my DPMS Heavy Sniper 308 home today.
I need to get started casting some NOE 311365's as soon as I get back from the SHOT Show.
Rich
I'm interested in how it works, the direct gas impingment vs the piston of the M 14-type rifle.
Please post your work and results.
I plan on being meticulous to the point of anal.
I am buying a second chronograph so I can double check all of the velocities, and every load that fires the first round safely will get the other nine shot.
I have Black Hills Match 168gr for a benchmark load, and will do the break-in using 50 rounds.
It will be interesting to compare data with the databank BruceB has established.
if I can just keep the j-bullet nerds out...
Rich
see you at the SHOT Show Monday morning.
Awesome thread, I have a M1A and FAL that I'll be feeding cast bullets in the next few weeks once the powder gets here. I know this started 6 years ago but hopefully I can add some more data soon with the bullet and power I'll be using.
.308 is just too pricey to really be able to enjoy shooting. As long as I can pull off 5 MOA I'll be more then happy for pratice ammo.
Maybe I missed it, but what barrel length are you using? I have the sweet 16.
Bruce, I would assume that you put as much effort into your cases as you do in your casting, it stands to reason.
What dies do you recommend for the M1A?
I was looking at these.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/473...308-winchester
Thanks.
Bruce thank you for your time and dedication to this endeaver. I have a super match M1A that I used to shoot high powerwith for number of years and it mainly sits in the safe now days do to the evolution of the AR platform. Your information will greatly reduce the time to get this great old rifle to shooting Cast Boolits. I appreciate your efforts.
gmsharps
Nevermind, I found it, finally got the chance to read the entire thread. I tried to search for larrys thread on the dies, but came up empty.
Last edited by BulletFactory; 03-12-2012 at 02:02 PM.
I'll post it here.
Larry Gibson
RCBS X-DIES: A TEST
By Larry M. Gibson
Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies. All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column. Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they? My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?
The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family. Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss. My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This is only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus once fired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.
Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring. This crack is sometimes quite obvious. Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection. Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected. But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber. The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good! The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?
What causes this incipient head separation to happen? Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure. When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely. The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance. Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions. When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first. This pushes the shoulder forward. The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck. This increases the case length on each resizing considerably. Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area. The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”. I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.
Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance. This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle. It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire. Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function. Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.
For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball. A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.
My M118 equivalent load is:
BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
PRIMER: Winchester WLR
POWDWER: H4895 – 41gr
BULLET: M118 174gr
CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”
Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded. Concentricity was checked after each loading. Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.
The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:
Any sign of incipient head separation.
Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
Split neck or body.
Case length exceeding 2.045”.
Loose primer pockets.
Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).
Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.
All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear. A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used. All targets were at 100 yards. I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string. But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit chronographing after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected. The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.
The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions. It’s really quite easy. These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod. The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts. There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions. This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.
I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks. Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should. Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube. This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.
Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent. After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth. However, this did not adversely affect concentricity or accuracy.
The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind. This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A. Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test. I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not. Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A. The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”. The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”, the average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”. Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.
The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation. One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring. There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened. I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.
Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:
RESIZING---MINIMUM----MAXIMUM---INCREASE
------------CASE--------CASE-----IN CASE
------------LENGTH-----LENGTH----LENGTH
1-----------2.013------2.019----------
2-----------2.021------2.025------.006
3-----------2.025------2.027------.002
4-----------2.025------2.027------.000
5-----------2.022------2.027------.000
6-----------2.023------2.025----(-).002
7-----------2.023------2.025------.000
8-----------2.024------2.026------.001
9-----------2.024------2.027------.001
10----------2.025------2.027------.000
11----------2.025------2.027------.000
12----------2.024------2.026----(-).001
13----------2.025------2.026------.000
14----------2.024------2.027------.001
Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent. Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length! At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward. Again this did not affect concentricity or accuracy.
Questions not addressed in this test:
1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?
2. Case life of cases already fired several times?
3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?
4. Case life of civilian manufactured (Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?
The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.
My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:
1. Clean cases
2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
4. Clean cases. Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
5. Load on Dillon 550B. Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1. This may or may not be necessary. The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.
This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this. I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.
This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available. I will buy more of them. When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!
Good luck, good shooting and good hunting
Addendum: I continued on with the test using the remaining nine cases. On the 16th firing another case showed signs of incipient
Case head separation. The other eight cases have been fired 20 times. I doubt I’ll continue on as 20 firings per case is enough.
Larry, thank you. This is invaluable.
On the query about my cartridge cases in this thread, I was really most-interested in seeing what results could be had in the M1A WITHOUT a lot of match-conditioning techniques, since none of my rifles are ever used in such serious work.
So....
ALL the brass was new-unfired (never loaded, never crimped} LC88 production. Only conventional processes were used, meaning trim-to-length before first loading, and regular length checks through the life of the cases. A Wilson cartridge gauge was used on EVERY loaded cartridge throughout the project. Such gauges do indicate over-length cases as well as proper sizing.
I bought an RCBS X-die late in the process, but never did get around to using it much. Based on Larry's results detailed immediately above, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the use of this important improvement for all auto-loading cartridges for which the tooling is available.
Seeing how many folks have found this thread to be useful, I am VERY glad that I started it! All contributions are much-appreciated, to say the least. If my medical condition improves, I have a few more things I want to add here my ownself...
Regards from BruceB in Nevada
"The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen
Thank you.
I read on the midway advertisement for the dies, that RCBS wants you to trim .020 from the cases to standardize them.
My confusion is this.
Do they want you to trim the .020 from once (or more) fired casings, from new brass, from brass previously trimmed to SAAMI, or from brass that has been sized in a "standard" FL sizing die?
Quite frankly for use in milsurp chambers I do not bother with the trimming as per RCBS directions. If the cases are new or once fired I adjust the mandrel to the oal of those cases when in the die as per the instructions for setting the mandrel after the 1st trimming. The reason is that all milsurp chambers are generally generous in dimensions. This includes the chamber neck length. If the mandrel is set the cases will all even out at that setting.
I have several X Dies for various cartridges and I quit doing the 1st trimming unless the batch of cases has unfired aol's that are a lot different.
One last note; RCBS also sells "SB" X dies and some for semi auto's. For milsurp chambers you do not need either as they both over size the cases. Get the standard X Die. My standard X die even sizes the case sufficiently for chambering in the tight match chaber of my M70 target rifle. I've yet to find a need, in over 40 years of loading for the .308W, for a SB die.
Larry Gibson
Not trying to hijack your thread Bruce.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote