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Thread: 7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

  1. #121
    Boolit Buddy 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longrifle View Post
    like I said before its your 1500 dollor gun, and when people read this and anyother post that gas operated firearms can safely shoot lead and not damage the firearm or potentially damage anything else I can only hope there is enough common sense to NOT USE LEAD in there fire arms. old wives tale or not
    Use lead in a firearm ment for lead then you don't have to worry about old wives tale and becomeing a Darwin award winner

    just my 2 cents
    I don't know but I have had a ball shooting cast in my NM M1a BECAUSE it is a $1500 gun. Way less pounding on the op rod, the bedding job takes much less abuse, brass lasts longer, less recoil, barrel wear minimized, and costs a fraction of shooting match jacketed. Oh ya, zero fouling in the gas system and no leading. Bruce did his homework and I'm glad he has shared his carefully gathered results with us. You of course should do as you see fit with your gun. I just cast up another 1200 311299's many of which I will be running through my M1a this season.

  2. #122
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by longrifle View Post
    like I said before its your 1500 dollor gun, and when people read this and anyother post that gas operated firearms can safely shoot lead and not damage the firearm or potentially damage anything else I can only hope there is enough common sense to NOT USE LEAD in there fire arms. old wives tale or not
    Use lead in a firearm ment for lead then you don't have to worry about old wives tale and becomeing a Darwin award winner

    just my 2 cents
    Hello Longrifle, and welcome to the forum! I may be wrong, but judging by the number of your posts, I assume you are fairly new to this website.
    If you are, allow me to say that I have found far more knowledge on this website about casting, loading, and shooting lead projectiles than anywhere else in my 30 years of shooting. The guys here take shooting lead very seriously, and there is much to be learned here. If you have any questions about shooting lead through a semi-auto, you definately came to the right place!
    (With the help of Gentleman on this website) Myself, and many others have fired countless lead Boolits through our Garands and SKSs, and now I have 360 rounds of lead through my M1A with no detectable leading in the gas system whatsoever. BruceB stated that he shot an excess of 600 rounds of lead through his, (without cleaning) with no detectable leading, and the rifle functions flawlessly. To me, that is convincing enough to say that he has a winning combo of bullet design, alloy, size diameter, powder type and weight to try it myself. So I did. If you don't feel comfortable shooting lead through your M1A, by all means, don't. It's your rifle. But thanks to the experimentation of others on this site, and the low pressures involved with shooting these lead projectiles, I feel safe that with regular maintenence and cleaning of your weapon, there are no safety issues or dangers of ruining my rifle. After all, I bought my rifle to shoot it. And with the price of match bullets pushing $30/100. Casting looks better and better all the time!
    Once again, hello, and good shootin'!
    I shoot so that I can handload.

  3. #123
    Boolit Bub
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    I was going to write a long, conveluted pile of info here but instead I will keep my nose out of this thread for now on, I'm sorry for butting in be safe and keep shooting that is the most important

  4. #124
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by longrifle View Post
    I was going to write a long, conveluted pile of info here but instead I will keep my nose out of this thread for now on, I'm sorry for butting in be safe and keep shooting that is the most important
    LongRifle,
    I think most of us on the board have been slapped upside the head with a clue stick enough times that we know we can be mistaken. If you have a pile of information, we are more than willing to look at it and digest it. Might post it on another thread though as not to muck this one up. Don't be surprised though if someone says "Hell, I was there and that ain't the way it is". (Sorry Elmer) There are quite a few of us willing to challenge "conventional" wisdom and do some sperimenting. Ask a question around here, and you will probably get "been there, done that" from somebody. Also, do not be suckered into the sometimes bucolic charm of this site. We have greenhorns and we have folks that have been over the mountain and back. We have more than one competitive high power shooter here. I have been shooting IHMSA for more than 15 years and am still learning. Heck, even one of the decent gun writers drops by from time to time. Folks on the board have sent literally tons of lead down range and have a pretty good idea of what is going on. Bruce is has travelled fairly far afield with his casting and has done a pretty good job of documenting it. People know his work and trust him.

    In short, welcome to the board. We welcome lively discussion and generally treat people with the same amount of respect they afford others.
    7br aka Mark B.

    On the internet, I am 6ft tall, good looking and can dance.

  5. #125
    Boolit Bub
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    from personal knowledge I just disagree in useing lead in gas operated firearms, they weren't designed for it. there's a post here about an ak that proves my point, old wives tale or not I believe it is a bad practice to use lead in gas operated firearms, i'm not against people that do just don't want some newbie blowing there hand off from a gun that malfunctions, if someone is taught safely and by someone with experience then cool it's there 1500 dollar gun not mine. and you all can point out all the pros and cons and it boils down to opinion of what is right for them. all i ask for the newbie's out there find personal hands on experience inspect there firearms, inspect yours and use common sence, if your new to reloading lead start with a lever or smoke pole leave the gas to someone with experience

  6. #126
    Boolit Buddy
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    BruceB, Wow thanks for quite the in depth tests, this is very nice to hear. I have read most of the post u have made and Ill have to reread again, I had a few questions though..
    My friend has recently acquired a Polytech m305(m14), so not exactly a true Springfield but close, he plans to a few thing to like change the sights and get trigger tuned and a few others, I have been suggesting to him to get into reloading more and more for the other guns he has, but now it comes down to the m14 he want to really wants to shoot, but like the "others" that worry about the leading their guns...

    -In your experiments do u have to use a gas checks on your projectiles for say 2000fps +(more to match the original loading)
    -if so, how much might be for the offset of startup with GC aprox. say for a batch size of 1000 to start(like check maker,material etc.)
    -Is it a hard lead(regular WW or different)
    -I see u have good amount of shooting without much or no leading in the gas piston or elsewhere, what a good tip for new guys and that will help the same process along.
    Last edited by mckutzy; 02-16-2011 at 03:43 AM.

  7. #127
    Boolit Master
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    To answer your Question about gas checks

    Yes you need gas checks

    the Norinco/ polly m305 will not know the difference from the information here

    but you have to work up a load in your gun

    the factory sight on the copy's are not that bad unless you can find a NM Sight
    so keep the factory unless you have $$ to burn
    the $$ is better spent on having fun and practice

    cost wise unless you know some one to cast lead bullets for you it can be expensive to try for a one time project
    Most casters cast for the hard to find cal or the expensive ones or cast to keep the cost down

    if you can find some one to cast/lube/size and install gas for you
    (that they all ready have the mould you are looking to load)
    you might be able to trade some wheel weights 10-30 lb for some ready to load cast bullets
    and then you still need to expand and flair the neck of your rifle brass

    and you need a different powder

    Post a ad up in your club

    Member interested in learning how to Cast ---> is one way start

  8. #128
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    [QUOTE=mckutzy;1163770]BruceB, Wow thanks for quite the in depth tests, this is very nice to hear. I have read most of the post u have made and Ill have to reread again, I had a few questions though..
    My friend has recently acquired a Polytech m305(m14), so not exactly a true Springfield but close, he plans to a few thing to like change the sights and get trigger tuned and a few others, I have been suggesting to him to get into reloading more and more for the other guns he has, but now it comes down to the m14 he want to really wants to shoot, but like the "others" that worry about the leading their guns...

    "-In your experiments do u have to use a gas checks on your projectiles for say 2000fps +(more to match the original loading)"

    Every cast bullet fired in my M1A used a gascheck.



    "if so, how much might be for the offset of startup with GC aprox. say for a batch size of 1000 to start(like check maker,material etc.)

    Contact "Blammer" on this Board for info on gascheck costs.



    "Is it a hard lead(regular WW or different)
    -I see u have good amount of shooting without much or no leading in the gas piston or elsewhere, what a good tip for new guys and that will help the same process along."

    ALL the bullets in this thread were water-dropped wheelweight alloy. Bullets were sized to .311". There is NO leading anywhere in the rifle, and no special techniques were used. All the info is already posted in the various posts.



    "robertbank" in British Columbia is casting for a Chinese M14 clone, but I think it's a Norinco. You might want to send him a PM.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  9. #129
    Boolit Buddy
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    thankyou very much guys for your response's. Ill pass on the info.

  10. #130
    Boolit Bub
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    BruceB, just wanted to say thanks heaps for the posts, i have a Norinco 305 that is the next rifle to be loaded for using lead projectiles.

    Ive been tinkering with cast loading and am very much enjoying this aspect of reloading, infact really cant see me going back to the jacketed things again!

    Your posts are extremely informative and a great source of reference material. Keep it up! i will need to go back over it all again as there is a bit to take in, but its a great read.

    cheers

  11. #131
    Boolit Master
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    I have tried about a dozen of BruceB's suggested loads in two different CETME's.

    A bit of allowance for differences netted me a load w/WCC-844 over 1900fps and under 2" at a hundred for 10shots with a scope, either rifle, and 3"+/- with the iron sights. At 62, with trifocals, I had to break down and get a pair of shooting glasses made.

    I went with BruceB (instead of the no-data expert) since I did not have a 1500 rifle, I assume that is a $1500 rifle minus the "$" sign. I paid $175 each for mine.
    Thanks BruceB,

    Rich
    getting by nicely, and thanks for asking...

  12. #132
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I just completed a re-read of this thread, and more than any other sentiment felt during the reading was a sense of emptiness......not having an M1A to play with! This has not always been the case--I've owned two (both Springers) over the years. These rifles were a ton of fun, as was an HK-91 also chambered to the 7.62 x 51.......but the costs to run them was prohibitive, even while making pretty good coin working lots of OT. They all went down the road, this during times I was merely dabbling with cast boolits in long arms. None of the three ever saw a cast boolit--and that's a shame, because I would have kept an M1A that was affordable to shoot. One of these days--maybe. I do enjoy the critters.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  13. #133
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I hear you Al, I wish I would have went ahead and ordered the loaded M1-A for $1200.00 from the pawnshop in Fernley, before I retired.

    One of these days I will get my finances squared away; then when I am debt free, my present to myself wil be an M1-A.

    Robert

  14. #134
    Boolit Mold
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    Primers

    Any thoughts on what primers should be used or work well with the M1A and cast boolits?

  15. #135
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    M1A is essentially a military rifle firing a military cartridge.

    The physical facts of the system, including the CHANCE (although small) of slam-fires, made it imperative in my mind to minimize the possibilities of such incidents.

    EVERY SINGLE ROUND fired in the project to date has been ignited by a CCI#34 "military" primer, and I have no plans to change that. In fact I recently obtained another 5000 #34s just for 7.62 NATO/.30-06 loading in semi-auto rifles.

    I advise anyone dealing with such rifles to do likewise.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  16. #136
    Boolit Master mroliver77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    I hear you Al, I wish I would have went ahead and ordered the loaded M1-A for $1200.00 from the pawnshop in Fernley, before I retired.

    One of these days I will get my finances squared away; then when I am debt free, my present to myself wil be an M1-A.

    Robert
    It really sucks that our keepers have outlawed importation of guns from China. The Chinese M1A are a good gun. They did have bolt troubles but from what I read that is cured. My old Polytech has a GI bolt and is a nice gun.
    I also have an SA Inc. " NM" M1A that is a fine shooter. Both see lot's of cast. I bought a few K of Rusky .311 condoms resized to .308 but still like cast.
    J
    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen

    "THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."
    Thomas Paine

  17. #137
    Boolit Buddy ReloaderEd's Avatar
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    I was watching guys at our gun club inVancouver Washington shoot cast bullets out to 300 yds. the best group was 1 3/4 inches. But not in M1a's.
    I studied up on this an d checked our turning cases to assure wall neck thickness and concentricity. This includes but not limited to: indexing the bullet mold, casting bullets, weighing bullets, lubing bullets to the index marks and loading bullets indexed to the cartridges and finally the loaded cartridges indexed to the rifle chamber. I concluded it is not a waste of time but one can be as picky as one wants al long as they have the spare time and don't wanna go fishing or something else. Have you or any of you tried this? what was your results? thanks!!! Be Safe
    Last edited by ReloaderEd; 11-06-2011 at 11:43 PM.

  18. #138
    Boolit Master
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    Well off and on for the last two years I have been trying cast in a Norinco
    A Semi only copy of the M14/ M1a

    I have tried only 2 different molds a
    RCBS 150g fn ( for the 30-30) and the
    RCBS 165 sil bullet cast at 173g

    no problems feeding from the mag

    I have not given up YET another mold is on order
    Some not bad groups but nothing to brag about
    but have had some comments "I wish I could shoot like that"
    The eye opener is when i tell them it is cast in a semi and no leading

    I work up a load slowly and might redo a load several times

    for example if a load is min 1 and max is 10
    first time out 1,2,3,4,5 and look at results
    2nd 3,4,5,6,7 and look at results
    3rd 4,5,6,7,8 and look at results
    4th 6,7,8,9,10 and look at results
    5 redo what i think is promising and it reduces the bad days when groups open up

    so i get different weather conditions, temp. etc and i get to have fun at the same time I have put around 900 rounds of cast through my rifle, with several powders
    Most of the loads i have tried eject the brass but fail to pick up the next round
    I think the 180g I have on order might be the ticket to 100% function

    I do not clean very often (I used to clean after every trip to the range even if i only fired 20 rounds)

    I now only after every 2/3/400 rounds or more
    I might only pull a Hopps soaked patch through the barrel

    but one of the problems i have found is the gas port switch gets stuck and will not turn with out using some force

    so now if i do not clean right away i put a drop of gun oil in the gas port hole and give the switch a turn to spread the oil around and it has stopped or reduced the sticking

    I do not know if it is because of less wax/ lube on the cast bullets i use or the powder or the weather in my area

    The most leading I have had has come out with either a patch or 2-3 passes with a bronze brush

    I my mind that means NO LEADING using ww with a bit of solder AIR COOLED sized to .3095

    Looking forward to the next trip to the range and more posts on this great site

  19. #139
    Boolit Master
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    My old klunkers just digested 60 rounds each of the 311365 at just over 1800fps. They look like I cleaned them, and scoped shot a bit over 2moa. The 20-15 vision nephew turned in some nice groups in the low 2" range with the irons.

    The alloy was 96-2-2 water dropped. Now I have to get the kid to learn how to make good boolets...

    Rich
    28-degrees at daylight this morning, 41 at the range at 1pm

  20. #140
    Boolit Master
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    Bruce,

    Many thanks for your work with the M1A and boolits. I am mouse clicks away from snapping up a SA NA9102 and it will spit lead.
    ph4570

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check