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Thread: 7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

  1. #81
    Boolit Buddy 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Thumbs up M1a cast bullets and silhouettes

    Bruce and contributors

    Really appreciate you documenting your experience with the M1a and cast bullets. I have read the entire thread. I played around some time ago after reading it and came up with a load that my gun (late 80's built Springfield NM in a McMillan stock) seems to like. This past weekend was the National Cast Bullet Silhouette championship at ridgway rifle club in ridgway PA. Really the highlight of my shooting year. Any how besides the regular 60 round match (used my 03a3 sporter with 311299 and 4350) shot with 15 shots each at the 200 meter chicken, 300 meter pig, 385 meter turkey and 500 meter rams they have 10 shot side matches for lever guns, pumps and military. For grins I loaded 75 rounds with my load of 31.0 Varget with the 311299, Fed 210, LBT blue lube and took it along. Everyone that knew M1 and M1a's told me I should not shoot cast bullets in a gas gun because it will foul up the sytem. I already knew better from your experience and the couple hundred rounds I had shot working up my load. Anyhow long story short the gun feeds and functions perfectly. Off the rest it was deadly on the 300 meter pigs. When I got into my sitting position to shoot the 10 round match I went 5 for 10 on the pigs. I had some wind to deal with and could not for the life of me read the direction of the sight knob to make my adjustment or feel I could have done better. Once I cornered one of my older buddies that has shot a M1a for decades (never with cast bullets) he got me straight on my sight adjustment. I fired the match single shot but still had 7 rounds left over. They were loaded mag. length so I shoved them all in sat down again and went 4 for 7 on the pigs. Really convinced me and the non believers. Anyhow I probably never would have tried it if it hadn't been for you guys sharing so thank you and the list very much for taking the time . Can't wait to play with it some more. I hope to shoot it at some of our local 200 yd. and 100 yd. High Power matches.

    I'll share my results when I do.

  2. #82
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Great to hear. What load have you developed using 4350 with the 311299 boolit?

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

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  3. #83
    Boolit Buddy 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Great to hear. What load have you developed using 4350 with the 311299 boolit?

    Take Care

    Bob
    Hi Bob,

    My stories kind of ran together there but the 4350 I shot was in my 03a3 for the regular 60 round match, not in my M1a. Sorry if it sounded like I used it in the M1a. I should not have included that in this thread. But if you are curious about that I shot (in my 03a3 30-06) 37.0 4350 with the 311299 sized .310 with LBT blue, Fed. 210's with a seated lenght of 3.340". I never clocked it so not sure but I think in the 1850 range. It shot great. I have since read here that 4350 is ok in the M1a with the charges normally used for cast bullets. I may try that also since I hope to ration my Varget that is pretty hard to find right now.

  4. #84
    Boolit Bub Bull Shoals's Avatar
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    well we have a contribution to the thread.

    Went to the range today using data posted here w/H335 as a starting point. Specifically, First try was 5 rounds w/29.5 grains and a NEI 30-150 mold that we have had for maybe 25 years. Could not make it group at the time I bought it, but it is in my brothers stash.

    Similar to a 31141, just shorter w/a smaller meplat. Sized .309 and nose measures .299 so it should not (did not in the previous life) work.

    The rifle is a Century Arms 09xx w/ChiCom parts, and a Federal Ordinance receiver. Barrel is Chicom chrome lined that will close on all 308 gages, but not on a 7.62 NATO field. Un itized, trigger job, GI fiberglass stock, NM sights. Magazine was not GI, but is reliable.

    Load is 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers, R-P brass w/maybe 2 reloads, no idea what the lube was as the boolits are maybe 25 years old straight air cooled wheel weights. OAL 2.63 and all shots were from the magazine loaded w/10 rounds.

    Feeds w/out a bobble. good extraction. Primers look good. Fireing was slow so as not to heat up the toy.

    Now for the coup de gras. Best 10 shot group at 50 yds, less 2 called flyers,
    was .770 x .883 from a bench w/the NM sights. Now for all you you younger folks w/good eyes, I was 70 on 7/3/2009, so I get to do some serious bragging. Pics will be posted tomorrow or Monday as the brothers computer wont take my chip.

    )

    Tried 29 gr, 29.5 gr and 30 gr H335. We will work on tightening up the group a little w/different lubes and I may even go so far as to slug the bore and see if a larger size to works well.

    I have used teflon tape w/good results in the past and will also try liquid alox.

    Bad news is I have no idea if the mold is still available.

    Tried 311466 and 311041 w/no success.

    Methinks I have found the load for my M14s. Makes for cheap shooting and saving the milspec loads for repelling borders and the like. Actually this load groups about the same as my jacketed load of 43 gr H4895, R-P cases, WLR primers and Hornady FMJBT 150 gr bullets which is a pretty consistant 2 minute load.

    Eat your hearts out lads.

    Seabreeze133

    Don
    Last edited by Bull Shoals; 07-04-2009 at 05:08 PM.

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy seabreeze133's Avatar
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    Attached is the target from the quoted post. Have not chronographed the load as work gets in the way. Bad news is I would like to shoot USPSA matchs and w/this 150 gr bullet I need a velocity of 2400 fps to make the required power factor of 360. Dont think I can make it w/this bullet/powder combination. Good news is the only local matches will allow an old guy some slack....unless/until the scores are really good.)

    I have a 31141 (old) lyman mold that will run about 180 gr sized and w/gas check, but to avoid bullet contact w/the rifling (do NOT want that) I will have to seat it really deep. Any suggestions on either 2400 fps for the 150, or a 180 gr bullet? BTW the 31141 was seated to feed in the magazine and still made contact w/rifling.

    Well I am not having sucess w/attaching the pic. Any suggestions?

    DB


    Quote Originally Posted by Bull Shoals View Post
    well we have a contribution to the thread.

    Went to the range today using data posted here w/H335 as a starting point. Specifically, First try was 5 rounds w/29.5 grains and a NEI 30-150 mold that we have had for maybe 25 years. Could not make it group at the time I bought it, but it is in my brothers stash.

    Similar to a 31141, just shorter w/a smaller meplat. Sized .309 and nose measures .299 so it should not (did not in the previous life) work.

    The rifle is a Century Arms 09xx w/ChiCom parts, and a Federal Ordinance receiver. Barrel is Chicom chrome lined that will close on all 308 gages, but not on a 7.62 NATO field. Un itized, trigger job, GI fiberglass stock, NM sights. Magazine was not GI, but is reliable.

    Load is 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers, R-P brass w/maybe 2 reloads, no idea what the lube was as the boolits are maybe 25 years old straight air cooled wheel weights. OAL 2.63 and all shots were from the magazine loaded w/10 rounds.

    Feeds w/out a bobble. good extraction. Primers look good. Fireing was slow so as not to heat up the toy.

    Now for the coup de gras. Best 10 shot group at 50 yds, less 2 called flyers,
    was .770 x .883 from a bench w/the NM sights. Now for all you you younger folks w/good eyes, I was 70 on 7/3/2009, so I get to do some serious bragging. Pics will be posted tomorrow or Monday as the brothers computer wont take my chip.

    )

    Tried 29 gr, 29.5 gr and 30 gr H335. We will work on tightening up the group a little w/different lubes and I may even go so far as to slug the bore and see if a larger size to works well.

    I have used teflon tape w/good results in the past and will also try liquid alox.

    Bad news is I have no idea if the mold is still available.

    Tried 311466 and 311041 w/no success.

    Methinks I have found the load for my M14s. Makes for cheap shooting and saving the milspec loads for repelling borders and the like. Actually this load groups about the same as my jacketed load of 43 gr H4895, R-P cases, WLR primers and Hornady FMJBT 150 gr bullets which is a pretty consistant 2 minute load.

    Eat your hearts out lads.

    Seabreeze133

    Don

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy seabreeze133's Avatar
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    Well lets see if this works.

    URL = photobucket.com/DB2

    DB

  7. #87
    Boolit Master
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    No dice there, seabreeze133.
    History will record, with the greatest astonishment, that those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

    The problem with Liberals is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

    - Ronald Reagan

  8. #88
    Boolit Buddy seabreeze133's Avatar
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    Smile

    Well that's a bummer that the connect does not work. I'll see if I can find a way to post the pics. maybe there is a sticky that will help.

    Have not taken the time to experiment w/the H335 and cast load as for the time being I am happy. Shot a bunch of the load couple weeks ago offhand for fun. Love the load, it functions the m14 well and is easy on brass. No Chrono so don't know what velocity in my rifle but suspect in the range of 1800 fps.

    Been playing w/a new DPMS sportical for repelling borders, dealing w/zombies, etc. It's definitely not going to be a cast rifle as it needs high pressure loads and so far loves 168 SMK/41.5 gr H4895/LCM brass and WLR primers. Hard on brass and worse than the M14. Bad news is the factory magazines are a challenge at best, but CProducts mags are great out of the box.

    Thanks to Buce for the direction as I had not even considered cast in the M14 and his work saved me a LOT of time and $$$.

    Don
    Last edited by seabreeze133; 09-10-2009 at 11:16 AM.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master
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    Highlight the IMG code on photobucket and right click the code and copy it. You should be able to paste it directly here. Give her a try, we'll help you out seabreeze.
    History will record, with the greatest astonishment, that those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

    The problem with Liberals is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

    - Ronald Reagan

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy seabreeze133's Avatar
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    Lets see if this works. The bottom 2 are the called flyers.

    Don
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_0289.jpg  

  11. #91
    Boolit Buddy seabreeze133's Avatar
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    Smile

    That was so much fun, think I will do some more.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Don's targets 002.jpg  

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
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    You got 'er!
    History will record, with the greatest astonishment, that those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

    The problem with Liberals is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

    - Ronald Reagan

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy
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    Like one of the other guys on this string, I tried out 30.0 gr. of Varget and Lyman 311299 in my M1A today @ 100yards and was encouraged enough to want try it again. The target was not good enough to post, but I think I will do better the next time out. Also, this same load did very well in Kimber M84 Longmaster. My best group was 1 ragged hole of 6 shots. After I let it cool for about 15 minutes the next 3 shots were 1.5" so I decided it was time to quit.

  14. #94
    Boolit Mold overbore's Avatar
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    Has anyone gotten either a Varget or H-4895 load to shoot M.O.M. ( minute of man) at 100yards? I have the brass, powder, M1A rifle and 311291 mold , old NEI. Any hope?

    many thanks great info share troops.
    Laus Deo
    overbore

  15. #95
    On Heaven's Range

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    "Minute of man".....what's that, maybe 6" at 100 yards??

    I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that it should be rather easy to find a load which meets that standard. My M1A has fired groups a good bit smaller than that with more than one powder.

    Having never used Varget in the rifle, as near as I can recall, it certainly shouldn't be hard to get M.O.M. with H4895.

    311291 functions fine in my rifle, and should be alright in the accuracy department. Don't be shy about trying a slower-burning powder, either....4350 or IMR4831 will also do well. Start about 37 grains with either of these powders and 311291.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  16. #96
    Boolit Mold overbore's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thanks!

    My criteria is about 3" for mom.

    Anyone have and op rod bending problems with powder slower than 4895? The real pros with the M1A have warned about using powder slower that the specific powder the weapon was designed for. I did bend the M1 op rod with 4831 and 180gr-- but it took about 1,000 rounds.

    Cordially, overbore

  17. #97
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by overbore View Post
    My criteria is about 3" for mom.

    Anyone have and op rod bending problems with powder slower than 4895? The real pros with the M1A have warned about using powder slower that the specific powder the weapon was designed for. I did bend the M1 op rod with 4831 and 180gr-- but it took about 1,000 rounds.

    Cordially, overbore
    If the "real pros" were really pros then they would know the gas system of the M1A is quite different from the M1's. The instance you cite was the common problem with M1s; cheap 4831 and surplus 173 gr jacketed bullets or the use of 180 gr commercial bullets. The "pros" should realize the M1A has a gas system that cuts off the gas flow after a very short movement, the M1 does not. Bent op rods in and M1A are not caused from this. Also the 7.62 does not hold enough 4831 over a 180 gr bullet to significantly increase the gas port pressure. Has to do with the much smaller internal volume of the 7.62 case vs the '06 case.

    With cast bullets in gas guns where you want 100% functional reliability it all boils down to the time pressure curve and the gas port pressures. With cast bullets the effective velocity is less than with jacketed bullets thus the peak pressure and the resulting time pressure curve are less when using the normal fast or medium burning powders that are associated with most cast bullet loads. This results in less gas port pressure and thus less than 100% functional reliability or none at all. The use of slower burning powders gives the required velocity with less pressure and a higher pressure (usually at the lower end of the required gas port pressure) at the gas pport. Thus, accurate cast bullet loads and the use of the slower burning powders such as 4350 or 4831, even with 220 gr bullets, do not give higher gas port pressures than the M1, M1A or the FN/FAL is designed for. The use of such slow burning powders can equate to reliable functioning and accuracy with cast bullets in gas guns. I believe that is the object of this exercise.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-22-2009 at 02:59 PM.

  18. #98
    Boolit Mold overbore's Avatar
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    Talking Out of Bounds

    Larry on your run back; you touched the line on your own 20---

    The reference cited is this: G l e n D . Z e d i k e r / H a n d l o a d i n g f o r C o m p e t i t i o n. He just happens to be the published authority on the subject two rifles and is the record holder with the M1A. Ahem---

    I enlisted in 1956 so I have been around the block -at lest once- and became an NRA Lifer in 1978 so with all that said, thanks for your suggestions. No foul

    Laus Deo
    overbore

  19. #99
    Boolit Buddy
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    What a great thread.

    I have been using Saeco 315 with 21 grains of 2400 to good sucess mostly shooting the 25 meter Appleseed targets (Army Qualification Test).

    I am using a Springfield M1a Loaded.

  20. #100
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by overbore View Post
    Larry on your run back; you touched the line on your own 20---

    The reference cited is this: G l e n D . Z e d i k e r / H a n d l o a d i n g f o r C o m p e t i t i o n. He just happens to be the published authority on the subject two rifles and is the record holder with the M1A. Ahem---

    I enlisted in 1956 so I have been around the block -at lest once- and became an NRA Lifer in 1978 so with all that said, thanks for your suggestions. No foul

    Laus Deo
    overbore

    Overbore

    Mr. Zediker and his publishings may be the "published authority" to you but I have read his writings for some time now. He says nothing that most of us have been saying long before he began writing it. Most of us have also been giving the same information on the 'standard" reload for M1A match ammo for years (168 MK over 41.5 gr of 4895). I also fail to see what he is the "record holder" of regarding the context of this thread. I also fail to see any writings of his on loading the M1A with cast bullets. I also fail to see any "expert" advise from him in this entire thread as Bruce was developing cast bullet loads. So please excuse me, no foul intended, but I do not stand corrected.

    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check