7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[BulletFactory]

OP, what's the current cast load data in the M1A you shoot? If you don't mind me asking.

I've got 30 something dollars, just enough to buy one can of powder... Thats it for a while, so I need to get the right can, and develop a load.

[dilly]

BulletFactory,

Sadly, BruceB passed away recently.

In most places finding a single very specific powder can be a hardship, so my advice to you is to pick from one of the many loads that he worked with and get experimenting. It would depend on several things but you don't mention which bullet you use.

[BulletFactory]

Oh dear....My condolances.


I have on hand, IMR-4895 and Hodgdon H-4895. I pulled a bunch that had H-4895 and bought a can of IMR.

The bullet is from Accurate Molds, a 31-170BG. With the powder coating, and the gas check, they come out to 168 grains.

I'm not sure what the maximum charge would be, I like to stay below that.

[dilly]

BruceB posted a recipe that seemed to work reasonably well on post #31 in this thread. It's not the same bullet, but the weight is almost the same and it's a reduced load anyway so you shouldn't have any pressure problems.

Happy shooting.

[BulletFactory]

I have a really basic question for you guys...

My cast, checked and powder coated round is 168 grains. Got lucky, thats what I wanted from the design. My old round, a copy of the M-118 really, also used a 168 grain bullet.

Since the old round, and the cast and checked round use the same powder type, (Side by side H-4895 was better than IMR 4895 today), then why would we not use the same charge of about 41.5 grains of H-4895? Why would the pressures be any higher than with shooting the SMK of the same weight in grains?

[BulletFactory]

BruceB posted a recipe that seemed to work reasonably well on post #31 in this thread. It's not the same bullet, but the weight is almost the same and it's a reduced load anyway so you shouldn't have any pressure problems.

Happy shooting.

Thank you.

I did a little shooting today.


Started cycling at 26 grains H-4895. IMR started cycling right off at my 25 grain starting load. I only loaded 2 of each, up to 34 grains to get me in the ballpark.

With the M-118 copy, I hit zero at 75 yards at 8 clicks up. With the cast and checked rounds, I'm hitting low, and had to come up to the 300 mark. Cant remember how many, but it's around 15 clicks I think.

I want a cast round that has a zero closer to 7 or 8 clicks at 75 yards so I dont have to second guess, or miss that first shot.

I have read this thread in the past, and once a couple months ago. Even had a couple notes, a couple recepies from gear, bruce, and others, but I lost my notes. My main computer broke, so I'm on the garage computer. Unfortunately, it's a standing area, and this is a really, really long thread. My feet get tired, hahahahaha.

[dilly]

I have a really basic question for you guys...

Since the old round, and the cast and checked round use the same powder type, (Side by side H-4895 was better than IMR 4895 today), then why would we not use the same charge of about 41.5 grains of H-4895? Why would the pressures be any higher than with shooting the SMK of the same weight in grains?

It probably wouldn't be an "unsafe" round per se, but it would give you such high velocities that it's usually pretty hard to be accurate with cast bullets. Don't get me wrong, high velocity cast bullets can and have been done, but it's pretty tough to get it just right. You are coating, so you shouldn't have as much problem with leading at high velocities as others might, but you will still likely not be very accurate at the full house load. At those velocities, having the perfect alloy (heat treated linotype maybe?) can help one maintain accuracy. The good news is that a properly expanding lead bullet doesn't "need" all that velocity to perform well.

As you've discovered, the point of impact will change due to the change of velocity. The M1A is a very easy platform to move the sights on at least.

If you are wanting a perfect M1A round that will fire the exact same weight bullet at the exact same point of impact for a fraction of the cost (I'm not mocking, I want this too), it is beyond my abilities. Some people dedicate their guns to being either cast or jacketed shooters because of this.

Good luck

[BulletFactory]

Thanks Dilly. Great post.

My primary concern was for safety, we'll worry about accuracy once we're safe. That's just how I load.


The rounds dont have to match exactly, I know that apples simply are not oranges.

I'm currently casting a set of rounds for this next test. Air cooled wheel weights. I'll load 5 each, 26 grains, 27, 28 on up, I just wasn't sure where to stop. I hate pulling bullets...Once I get the results from that test, I'll take them down to tenth grain increments until I get the most accurate load.

[JKEllison]

I have been reading this thread all afternoon and I am still lost. I have been loading cast pistol boolits for several years and have just started PCing them and I am wanting to try some in my Ruger American .308 but I can not find any data in my books or on here maybe I am not looking in the right place. I am wanting to load up some PCed 160 gr. with GC's and I have IMR 4895 and IMR 4064. Can someone please give me a starting point on this using these powders. Thanks

[BulletFactory]

I am going through the same thing with my M1A. I use a 169 grain round.

Using H-4895, and IMR 4895 on the same day, I had loadsd them at 25 grains, 26, 27, and so on. The H-4895 almost cycled at 25, it did, at 26 grains. At 32, it started picking the front of the gun off the bi-pod. I was shooting prone, left hand on the magazine.

Using Imr, the result was the same, except that 25 grains cycled the action, and it jumped at 31 grains. I'd bet it wouldnt cycle, or mayyybeeee at 24.

If you start in the low to mid 20's you'll do fine. They're pretty light.

[JKEllison]

I really didn't have a base line to start none of my books or the web sights let you pick cast lead and with them being PCed is a dead end. I have read that you can push them almost to jacketed boolit speed but Im using aluminum GC's plus being powder coated I really don't know where to start.I will try starting at 25 gr. and go from there. The ones I have checked are running about .310 with out sizing them. Guess I will have to see what I can come up with tomorrow.

[BulletFactory]

Keep after it, you'll get there.

Please understand that we are literally making the most technologically advanced bullets known to mankind. We are the ones learning and writing the rules this time.

Welcome to the forum. There is a huge knowledge base here. You'll also notice the absence of a whole lot of bull, and bickering that is so prevalent on gun websites today.

[dilly]

I really didn't have a base line to start none of my books or the web sights let you pick cast lead and with them being PCed is a dead end. I have read that you can push them almost to jacketed boolit speed but Im using aluminum GC's plus being powder coated I really don't know where to start.I will try starting at 25 gr. and go from there. The ones I have checked are running about .310 with out sizing them. Guess I will have to see what I can come up with tomorrow.

You should buy a Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. They are a useful reference and you can learn a bit about casting from it as well.

[StratsMan]

The Lee reloading manual also has many recipes for cast boolits...

[popper]

IMR & H4895 are not the same powder. H4895 can be downloaded by a bunch safely, don't know about the IMR. I chrony's the 170gr @ 2634 fps yesterday, good accuracy, close to max book jacketed load.So yes you can get jacketed performance from cast. BruceB pointed out it is the gas pressure at the op rod that is the limiting factor.

[BulletFactory]

Got some range time today, it's going to be around 30 grains of H-4895. Time to make the final set of rounds.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

I for one will certainly miss your wisdom Bruce B. May God bless .

My M1A is leaning toward IMR 4064 ,still working on it.

[BulletFactory]

H-4895 is more accurate than the IMR. Again, but not by much.

Looks like my load is between 30 and 31 grains. Had the best accuracy at 30.5, and 30.9. I'll load another set, probably 10 rounds per target; 30.4, 30.5, up to 31.0. I'm kinda hoping for 30.8. Just because. These are all H-4895 measurements.

[ammohead]

This thread has come a long way since the days when naysayers were telling BruceB that he was in dangerous territory shooting cast in his M1A. A few years back BruceB won the 400 yard event at the NCBS with his M1A and a performance of 5 out of 5 hits on a 14X22" gong. This year the event was renamed the Bruce Bannister Memorial 400 yard event. And I am proud to say that I won this year using my M1A but only hitting 3 of 5 sitting offhand.

[IMG][/IMG]


And my name is Bruce also.

After getting home from the event I retrieved from my mailbox the pair of castlenut pliers and Lee Shaver inserts for my globe front sight. I had previously bought a shim kit from Brownells and now that I could get the front sight and flash hider off I installed it. It took every shim but the gas cylinder lock came up snug at just the right place for what felt like a perfect fit. Next I inserted the correct aperature for the black on a nra 25 yd repair center target at 50 yards. While I was at it I took a look at the trigger group and decided to take a tad bit off of the sear engagement for a nice crisp let off with minimum creep. The next trip to the range gave me this sweet 8 shot group at 50 yards.

[IMG][/IMG]

The load was 30 gr of WC846 and Noe 150 gr flat nose. To say that I am pleased is an understatement. Thanks Mr B for paving the way. A little more than a year ago when we helped Bruce move to Reno he gave me his copy of "U.S. Rifle M14 from John Garand to the M21" by R. Blake Stevens. A wealth of information and history on this firearm. Inside the front cover is inscribed Bruce J. Bannister Yellowknife - 1984. Truly a cherished gift.

[Wedgie]

Very good work Ammohead Bruce. I am sure Bruce B. would be proud. I have been lurking on the Cast Boolits site for some time off and on. Last week Bruce's work on the M1A caught my attention and I have begun gearing up to recreate some of his recipes. As I worked my way through the posts it sure was sad to find out he had passed. When you get tired of shooting that old M1A let me know. I will send you my FFL's shipping address.