7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[ammohead]

BruceB,

Wince no longer. I removed the scope as it did not seem to improve things one bit. For Xmas I bought a globe front sight for the old girl. Haven't tried it yet, maybe tomorrow, but they work wonders on the other rifles I have put them on.

[jr86]

Just Wanna thank BruceB for sharing years of research. It's been invaluable to me.

Thanks
Jeremy

[ammohead]

Went out yesterday with NOE 155 FN and 30, 31, 32 gr of surplus imr 4895 from Jeff Barlett. Previously I was doing no better than 3-5 inches at 50 yards. But yesterday was a 300% improvement with groups in the 2" class. Remove 1 or 2 strayers and a couple of groups were close to 1".

I made changes to how the rifle sits on the bags, seriously lubed the receiver/bolt races with lubriplate. Used lubriplate on the cam roller and mating surfaces, oiled the trigger group and left the gas operating system dry as speced. The action was a lot slicker than I had seen it before. I also opened the aperature on the rear sight just a tad to allow a nice halo around the front globe sight that I installed. Too many changes at once to say for sure what made the difference. But I am a happier camper and can breathe a little easier about whether or not I will ever find the right load. I am going to go back over some of the older loads that had way too many strays from the center group and give them another chance after the changes.

Too much fun.

[ammohead]

Finally some success.


The idea was...find a reasonably accurate load from my M1A that I can use for practice and fun. Best case scenario would be using a surplus (read cheap) powder that I had plenty of. I tried imr7383 and haven't as yet had any luck. So I thought I would try WC846 seeing that I have 3 8lb jugs. Viola. The circled holes were the first five rounds shot in the string. I was way tempted to stop right there, but BruceB started this adventure using 10 round groups and I decided to stick with the norm for this thread. The first 5 measured .540" center to center with 9 out of 10 grouping into 1.4". The one shot out of group was called upon firing when my left hand grip raised the forearm off the bags on recoil.

I haven't chronoed the load yet but I will be loading up some bracket loads of around .3 grain increases and will chrono those and post results sometime soon.

Obviously some credit must be given the powder/boolit combination, but I have been having some improvements in my bench technique as well. I moved the front bag way back behind the sling hardware to eliminate any interaction with the bag on recoil. When I don't pay attention to this after every shot the grouping goes south immediately. To say that I am jazzed about the potential is an understatement. More results to come.

[sdcitizen]

Tried some loads with RP-13 (1680 burn rate). As expected, couldn't get the action to cycle the M1A reliably all the way to 2400 fps, where primers started to look like normal jacketed loads. This was with the Lee 155 gr boolit. Same boolit with 32.5 of H335 is a winner though.

[Wayne S]

"ammohead"
How did you find that the WC 846 as for as burning, clean or dirty ? Did the 30 Gn. generate enough pressure to seal the case to the chamber or were your fired cases "dirty" around the neck / shoulder area?

[JackQuest]

My 2 cents worth - using a charge of 36.0 grains WC844 powder and Lyman 311291 seated 2.60" OAL, gas check, lube, sized .309 in Star and cast up from a high copper alloy I was finally able to get to the range and at least see if the load functioned. Only able to get 10 rounds off, but action cycled correctly, fed well, ejected with less of the "toss to the wind" effect that other (jacketed) loads do. The alloy I'm using casts about 181 grains. Next time hope to get on paper and after that will seat to 2.70" OAL for better fit in magazines. Used 5 shot magazine for test.
Sorry I don't have more and better information at this time. Too many other projects diverting my efforts these days.

[cbrick]

Today I checked one more thing off the bucket list. Since the 60's when I was a guest at uncles Camp Pendleton qualifying with the M-14 I've wanted one and never did get roundtoit. Today I picked up an M1A and started reading this thread. I haven't even priced factory ammo much less bought any in years but today I looked at 308's for the brass . . . Holy Mother of God are people really paying that? No wonder I handload and cast.

I'm gonna start with N-140 and see where it starts to reliably cycle the action and where it shoots. For boolits I have over 30 molds in 30 caliber so there must be something that'll work. Gonna be interesting.

Rick

[country gent]

WHich one did you get? Rack grade, match, super match, Springfield armory, Fulton Armory, Smith enterprises, Armscor? They are a great rifle and when fully tuned very accurate tools. I used them for years in NRA service rifle and CMP/DCM leg matches. First rifle I shot past 200 yds was a M1A.

[cbrick]

It's the Springfield M1A Standard, 22", Green plastic stock with rubber butt plate, peep adj sights.

Rick

[cbrick]

Read through this entire thread & much of it a couple times, great info by BruceB and an outstanding write up by Larry on the X dies. I have the X dies and the RCBS AR Series taper crimp dies ordered, I ordered the small base F/L sizer based on fired brass F/L sized with my regular RCBS 308 F/L die will not chamber without really slamming the bolt closed.

Great thread and many thanks to BruceB and all that have contributed to it.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Right behind ya, Rick. Load of brass in the tumbler as I type this, and a new mould is in the mail. I wish that rubber butt plate would come off without tools so I could store the gas plug/block wrenches, chamber brush, etc. in there. This stock may not stay on there for long, already sniffing around Boyd's for a walnut one and handguard.

Thinking of starting out with Reloder 7, what are you using?

Gear

[cbrick]

Gear, take a look at the entrance to your chamber. I loaded up some dummy rounds with 4 different bullets to check if they would cycle, there is a ridge on mine that puts a severe crease into the shoulder as it's chambering. That was from cycling the action by hand not firing it. 12 dummy rounds and 12 ruined cases. From all appearances it's made that way on purpose, only thing I can think of is to prevent handloading. Firing it would be a much harder action than cycling it by hand and it could be severe enough to rupture the case. Rick is mightily bummed. Was going to load for it today and shoot tomorrow, didn't load, too bummed out.

I think I have discovered why the guy sold it at what should have been a decent price with so few rounds through it. Only fix I can think of is to re-barrel it.

Was gonna load with N-140.

I was gonna look for wood for mine too, now don't know what I'll do.

Rick

[tomme boy]

Call Springfield. It should not be that way.

[cbrick]

Call Springfield. It should not be that way.

Already looked up their customer service number. It's Sunday so I have to wait till morning. I didn't buy it new but it's only four months old, can't hardly tell it's been fired. Now I know why.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/customer-service/

Rick

[geargnasher]

Hmm. That little ridge between the feed ramps cut into the back of the barrel does leave a slight ding in the shoulder, but nothing that I'd consider a worry. The edge of the chamber on mine is pretty sharp, too.

Check the underside of the front edge of the feed lips on your magazine, I wonder if they don't have a bad stamp-cutting burr on the underside that snags the rim of the case just as it's about to pop free and lets the bolt face jam the shoulder down into that point between the feed ramps. There's a bad jam-up of things right then, the bolt banging the case free of the feed lip and the shoulder of the case glancing off of the edge of the chamber all at the same time. Might debur the underside of the feed lips and see if that doesn't help. I already deburred the underside of the bullet nose guiding tabs of one of my magazines because they were shaving the hell out of my bullet noses as the bolt stroked back and raked each cartridge to the back of the magazine and popped the nose up and free of the guide. If ever there was a candidate for polymer-tipped ammo, these rifles are it for sure, they're so crude and rough and loaded with sharp edges it's a wonder they function at all, but they have a stellar track record for semi-auto reliability.

If your problem isn't strictly related to the magazines, I wonder if a little judicious polish work with a dowel rod and emery paper on the edge of the chamber might do the trick?

Gear

[geargnasher]

Also, you ARE knocking that shoulder all the way back in your sizing, die, right?

Gear

[cbrick]

Also, you ARE knocking that shoulder all the way back in your sizing, die, right? Gear

Thanks for the tips Gear. Brand new X die adjusted as RCBS recommends with the cam over, can't set it down any further.

I'll take another/closer look at the magazines. I've got four but confess I didn't think it was the problem and only used one to check different nose shapes for cycling/feeding. Nose shape isn't the culprit, same crease on all the brass regardless four completely different noses.

I'll look at everything and do some more head scratching before I call Springfield. If ya have any more ideas I'm all ears.

Rick

EDIT to add: The brass I used was already decapped and I took the decapping rod out of the die so as not to drag the expansion button up through the neck and pull the shoulder up. I used an "M" die to expand and flare.

[country gent]

Have you tried any factory loads to see if the issue happens with them also. We always polished M14 mags with green scratch pads or steel wool ( some even buffed lightly with a medium rouge) to smooth up lips and outsides for easier removal and insertion. The feed lips reduced drap and nose dropping gown under pressure.

[cbrick]

Have you tried any factory loads to see if the issue happens with them also. We always polished M14 mags with green scratch pads or steel wool ( some even buffed lightly with a medium rouge) to smooth up lips and outsides for easier removal and insertion. The feed lips reduced drap and nose dropping gown under pressure.

I gotta admit that "factory loads" sounds like finger nails on a blackboard but I may try that suggestion. First I'll take a much closer look at the mags and see whatever I can see there. Hate to modify the rifle if not needed, the feed ramp is there for a reason, just not to ruin brass.

Rick