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Thread: Sniping Applications of Roundball

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, but a man armed with a smoothbore musket could go quite a bit of that distance while he was reloading, and with two or three of them he would really be in trouble. French skirmishers could reload at the double, striking the butt on the ground to seat a loose ball. The riflemen were specialists, depended on numbers, cover and distance, and in Spain at the least, they were often distributed at a company or so per line division.

    The term "line", for ordinary infantry, is an eloquent one. The British army was exclusive volunteer in the Napoleonic, if you count a judge or magistrate sometimes offering an alternative. Commanders like the Duke had to conserve their lives except in the most drastic need, and remained capable of standing in line of battle right up to Waterloo, and firing and loading in two or three groups. Organised volleys offered the best chance of windows in the smoke. Napoleon started out with badly disciplined revolutionary armies and later conscripts, with many of the former regime's officers guillotined or travelling for the good of their health. That is why his men advanced in rectangular columns, with the front few ranks intended to be expended, and he disliked small-scale skirmishing, which Spanish guerrillas did rather well. He actually withdrew the few rifles the monarchist regime had used, but with his material and in his situation, it wasn't bad logic.

    You would probably like CS Forester's "Death to the French", which is the story of a Rifleman Dodd who is separated from his unit, and becomes a leader of Spanish guerrillas. He isn't a man of unusual intelligence or unusual courage, but he has been taught to make the best use of what he has got.

    The 60th Rifles were raised as the Royal Americans in the Seven Years War, and although by the time of the American Revolution they were mostly British, served very creditably there. In 1914 they were considered a loophole for Americans who wanted to get into the First World War early. I don't know if that had any validity in law, but they didn't ask too many questions at the time.

  2. #22
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    I will tell you all what I know about original Kentucky's and what I have read from old accounts. Original Kentucky rifles have very low sights. The one I own has a front sight that is 1/16" or a little less and I've seen others with even lower front sights. When looking down the barrel there is not much of a front sight to use a real coarse sight picture. All the accounts that I have read about sighting in a rifle the barrel was bent rather than drifting one of the sights. They may have done some rear sight drifting by a gun maker but don't know for sure. Most people have come to believe that Kentucky rifles had small bores and slow twist rifling. However the ones made during the Rev war were as large as .65 and some of the old rifles had twist rates as fast as 1 in 39" or so. I have read accounts of riflemen on the frontier fighting Native Americans and "loading a double charge of powder and two balls" to shoot at distant warriors. They also used thinner patching material when they forted up and were expecting a fight. I don't know what rifle was used for the famous shot. I have read and heard different ones so I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. What I do know is it had a wrought iron barrel on it and it has lots of imperfections in it. You could never get a slick bore with it like you can with steel. However they still shoot very well, never owned one myself but know others that have and they shoot better than you can. The men making those long shots back then used their rifles to make a living by hunting. Using the same rifle everyday you learn a lot about it and how you need to hold to make different shots. My eye sight has never been good enough to make shots like that with open sights. I'm not a ballistic guru or big time target shooter so I can't comment on the technical stuff of bullet flight at different distances. I'm just throwing out there what little I do know. I've seen hundreds of old rifles over the years and talked with collectors and other builders that have checked out rifling twist rates in the old rifles. You can't really compare the old rifles to the new ones being built today. Production rifles usually have poorly tuned locks and many don't have the vent liners set up right. Custom rifles have well tuned locks and use vent liners which were never used by American builders in the 18th century. Very few rifles have the low sights on them either. I have low sights on my personal rifle and on a hot day the front sight has heat mirage by the third shot, they also are hard to see when the sun is bright.

  3. #23
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    Well if I was going to set out to wring out all the accuracy I could get from my .54 Early Virginia, I would have my horn, powder measure, a tight patch/ball combo, a cleaning jag and some swabbing patches, and a short starter, patch knife. Above all, I think the most critical piece of equipment would have been the best telescope money could buy so his spotter could tell him where the last ball landed.

    I think if the wind was calm, it wouldn't be too difficult to "walk" the balls on target. In the 1700s officers felt it would be cowardly to "hide" from an enemy 300 yards away, so you probably could get a couple shots off before the officers got nervous. The other thing to remember is that in combat they don't worry about "humane kills", so a gut shot is a perfectly great hit. They don't have to worry about tracking, or recovering the quarry, or meat damage. Likely as not, even a good leg hit would result in the target being hauled off the battlefield and quite possibly dying of infection a week later. So their 300 yard sniper shots were not the same at us picking off a deer at 300 yards with an '06.

  4. #24
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    I have as of now (this past Sunday) witnessed shooters who have failed to even 'hit the berm' with a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor @ 400 yards. Not to mention even hitting the steel gong thereto.
    I have numerous round ball rifles, and as such, with what I have personally witnessed, I may have give the round ball a go at the longer ranges.
    (I just never tried to stretch a round ball beyond 100yards)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    I have as of now (this past Sunday) witnessed shooters who have failed to even 'hit the berm' with a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor @ 400 yards. Not to mention even hitting the steel gong thereto.
    I have numerous round ball rifles, and as such, with what I have personally witnessed, I may have give the round ball a go at the longer ranges.
    (I just never tried to stretch a round ball beyond 100yards)
    I think the shooter you witnessed has something missing because I have hit a 16" steel plate from 400 yd with my old Ruger M-77RS with my own 125gr. handloads so I know it can be done and I'm an average shooter. With a little more range time with my .50 Traditions Kentucky rifle I'd be willing to lob some balls that far although I'd probably only be able to keep them on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    Well if I was going to set out to wring out all the accuracy I could get from my .54 Early Virginia, I would have my horn, powder measure, a tight patch/ball combo, a cleaning jag and some swabbing patches, and a short starter, patch knife. Above all, I think the most critical piece of equipment would have been the best telescope money could buy so his spotter could tell him where the last ball landed.

    I think if the wind was calm, it wouldn't be too difficult to "walk" the balls on target. In the 1700s officers felt it would be cowardly to "hide" from an enemy 300 yards away, so you probably could get a couple shots off before the officers got nervous. The other thing to remember is that in combat they don't worry about "humane kills", so a gut shot is a perfectly great hit. They don't have to worry about tracking, or recovering the quarry, or meat damage. Likely as not, even a good leg hit would result in the target being hauled off the battlefield and quite possibly dying of infection a week later. So their 300 yard sniper shots were not the same at us picking off a deer at 300 yards with an '06.
    Black Jack ....I reckon its doable - a good roundball gun properly loaded is capable of groups round two inches at 100yards, probably accurate enough to take somebodys head off at two hundred - I run a 54 loaded hard and it will do 1800FPS at the muzzle - sighted in for 150 would put the ball 9inches high at the midrange and 2 feet low at 200yards - a practiced rifleman would be deadly dangerous working like that - you have over ten feet of drop at 300 but the ball still has 600FPS - Ever wondered what the ears on a buckhorn sight were for ? Most "Embellishments" from those days had a purpose even if we have yet to figure that out - I reckon you could unhorse the general at the least .

  7. #27
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    My gunsmith has a 10ga shotgun that he throws pumpkin balls with. He is telling of hitting clay pigeon at 50yards every time, and a dinner plate at 100.....smoothbore.
    Give the pumpkin ball a slow twist and I believe it would be good for 200 yards, with a rifleman at the controls.
    and, back in the day of the muzzle loaders, 'sniping' was probably about 200 yards.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    My gunsmith has a 10ga shotgun that he throws pumpkin balls with. He is telling of hitting clay pigeon at 50yards every time, and a dinner plate at 100.....smoothbore.
    Give the pumpkin ball a slow twist and I believe it would be good for 200 yards, with a rifleman at the controls.
    and, back in the day of the muzzle loaders, 'sniping' was probably about 200 yards.
    Even in modern days, a friend tells me when working the Mekong Delta as a sniper, he very seldom took a shot at over 300 yards, and most were under 200. Colonel David Hackworth wrote about him in "Steel my Soldiers Heart".
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    My gunsmith has a 10ga shotgun that he throws pumpkin balls with. He is telling of hitting clay pigeon at 50yards every time, and a dinner plate at 100.....smoothbore.
    Give the pumpkin ball a slow twist and I believe it would be good for 200 yards, with a rifleman at the controls.
    and, back in the day of the muzzle loaders, 'sniping' was probably about 200 yards.
    Punkin Rollers!
    many moons ago a mate and I picked up a 16 gauge ball mold at a farm auction (talking late 1960's and us just left school) I had just previous to that acquired a rattly worn out belgian DB 12 gauge with a blown right side barrel - looked like the duck hunter had took a stumble in the swamp and pulled one on a blocked barrel or the gun was maybe left in an outbuilding someplace and hornets nested in it - anyways five bucks was the gunsmiths price so it came home with me - have to hacksaw this to make it work - choke is gone so we may as well do a proper job - legal those days was 16 inch barrel so we cut it 16 and one quarter to allow for cops with shrunken tape measures - then I trimmed the forend back and took about inch and a half off the stock -- its surprising how balancing the dimensions a bit overcomes the shortened firearm look -- soooo-- what next ? Well we had to do something with that mold, we were setup for casting for our 32/20's - so we made some pure lead ball (yeah we had read some boooks about this stuff) ugly ball they were we cut the sprues off - what now ? we got a 12 gauge gun and a 16 gauge ball! I know ! lets use the plastic wad cup (a relatively new invention at the time!) ---ooooops - no - that ball is still too small - well Danl Boon used a greased patch in a muzzle loader - hows about that? (this is two kids in 1969!) so we loaded the 16 g ball in a 2x4 cleaning patch slathered in axle grease down into the plastic wad cup - neat! just a nice firm fit - fired into a gum tree at about twenty yards that ball flattened out to over an inch across - but hey it almost hit where it was pointed --- back to the drawing board here - we fitted a martini backsight to the rib - screwed a brass screw down into the cutoff rib at the front and filed it to fit - decent sights now - we had windage and elevation -- cut to the chase - shot carefully that thing would make a group at fifty yards about five inches wide and three inches high - both barrels. Have since seen some very impressive shooting with roundballs out of smooth tubes. Not sure about 200 though I think that is rifle territory .

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Punkin Rollers!
    many moons ago a mate and I picked up a 16 gauge ball mold at a farm auction (talking late 1960's and us just left school) I had just previous to that acquired a rattly worn out belgian DB 12 gauge with a blown right side barrel - looked like the duck hunter had took a stumble in the swamp and pulled one on a blocked barrel or the gun was maybe left in an outbuilding someplace and hornets nested in it - anyways five bucks was the gunsmiths price so it came home with me - have to hacksaw this to make it work - choke is gone so we may as well do a proper job - legal those days was 16 inch barrel so we cut it 16 and one quarter to allow for cops with shrunken tape measures - then I trimmed the forend back and took about inch and a half off the stock -- its surprising how balancing the dimensions a bit overcomes the shortened firearm look -- soooo-- what next ? Well we had to do something with that mold, we were setup for casting for our 32/20's - so we made some pure lead ball (yeah we had read some boooks about this stuff) ugly ball they were we cut the sprues off - what now ? we got a 12 gauge gun and a 16 gauge ball! I know ! lets use the plastic wad cup (a relatively new invention at the time!) ---ooooops - no - that ball is still too small - well Danl Boon used a greased patch in a muzzle loader - hows about that? (this is two kids in 1969!) so we loaded the 16 g ball in a 2x4 cleaning patch slathered in axle grease down into the plastic wad cup - neat! just a nice firm fit - fired into a gum tree at about twenty yards that ball flattened out to over an inch across - but hey it almost hit where it was pointed --- back to the drawing board here - we fitted a martini backsight to the rib - screwed a brass screw down into the cutoff rib at the front and filed it to fit - decent sights now - we had windage and elevation -- cut to the chase - shot carefully that thing would make a group at fifty yards about five inches wide and three inches high - both barrels. Have since seen some very impressive shooting with roundballs out of smooth tubes. Not sure about 200 though I think that is rifle territory .
    My point is that round balls are worth more credit than they are given. They are generally given NO credit. A good smoothbore, with a properly sized pumpkin ball can surprise you. A good rifled barrel, with twist optimised for said pumpkin ball, will surprise you to another degree. If you step up to the next level, you shoot conicals (bullets) out of a twist barrel optimised for the bullet, you get surprised again. Be they muzzle loaders, round balls, or whatever, there is merit to be had, provided a marksman at the controls.
    The key here is 'marksman at the controls'. I have witnessed guys with the Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor that couldnt hit the berm at 400 yards.
    I think a 'true marksman' with a round ball could at least 'hit the berm'

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Indeed. If there is any such thing as a bullet that is inherently accurate it is the roundball. It can't tumble or yaw. They are certainly capable of accuracy - they just drop terribly past 100 yards.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=kens;4331015]My point is that round balls are worth more credit than they are given. They are generally given NO credit. A good smoothbore, with a properly sized pumpkin ball can surprise you. A good rifled barrel, with twist optimised for said pumpkin ball, will surprise you to another degree. If you step up to the next level, you shoot conicals (bullets) out of a twist barrel optimised for the bullet, you get surprised again. Be they muzzle loaders, round balls, or whatever, there is merit to be had, provided a marksman at the controls.
    The key here is 'marksman at the controls'.

    I get your point - I have had a couple of roundball rifles that I would have loved to put a good telescope on and get serious just to see what they really could do - just was (would have been) a lot of work to prove a point - I am convinced they both would have gone inside two inches at 100yards for ten shot groups - not match barrels - just run of the mill factory guns loaded properly.

  13. #33
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    I am interested in the cone of fire of roundball at the long distances. We all agree they drop terribly, but, will they still maintain a group?
    Match grade RB barrels shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards

  14. #34
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    They generally get quite a lot of credit. But it is for impact effect (pretty much guaranteeing the frontal area the advertisement pictures claim an elongated bullet of the same weight will expand to), and for short-range accuracy. Even then it is a bit easier to make a bullet with a paper patched cylindrical section work, than a round ball patched in cloth or leather. It takes great care to avoid the wrinkles positioning the centre of mass off-centre.

    Almost nothing but a smoothbore gives insufficient twist to stabilise a round ball. But from a smoothbore they do tumble. It is just that you don't have any way of detecting it. If the bullet rolls in flight, the airflow is travelling faster over the forward-moving side than the backward-moving one. The result is the bullet moving in a curved path.

    This rolling can arise in two different ways. The worst, because it is the earliest, is rolling along the surface of the bore. Frontiersmen and Indians probably patched and wadded their balls tightly to prevent this, but soldiers in line of battle, at a time when letting a well-drilled enemy double from a hundred yards to twenty meant disaster, couldn't afford the time.

    Then the other form of roll begins in flight. General Hatcher believed an unspinning ball built up a cushion of air in front of it, and at some unpredictable point slipped out from behind it. The curved path, and the late escape from the air-cushion, would certainly explain why smoothbore round ball groups at 100 yards are likely to be much more than double the size of the fifty-yard ones.

    Long ago I had a washing-machine from before the rotating-drum automatics. A wheel in the side, with several radial ridges not over half an inch in height, was enough to set the whole load of water and clothes spinning. It may be that the air friction and spin of the round rifle bullet is enough to keep throwing off that air-cushion by centrifugal force, before it is enough to obstruct the bullet's forward motion.

    If that is true (and I don't have any firm evidence), the use of the slowest twist that will stabilise a bullet may not be the best choice for long-range accuracy.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    I am interested in the cone of fire of roundball at the long distances. We all agree they drop terribly, but, will they still maintain a group?
    Match grade RB barrels shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards
    I believe that possible - however when I am told they do it with open sights and standing on their two hind legs ......................................

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I believe that possible - however when I am told they do it with open sights and standing on their two hind legs ......................................
    I am not speaking of standing offhand.
    There are such things as benchreast matches at 100yards, open or peep sights.
    What I am proposing is scoping a fine, heavy barrelled round ball gun and stretch it out to 200, from a bench.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I believe that possible - however when I am told they do it with open sights and standing on their two hind legs ......................................
    That sort of performance was certainly achieved in the great days of scheutzen shooting, with very specialised rifles which were most often loaded with a charged case and either a muzzle-loaded or separately breech-seated cylindro-conical bullet. But the reaction if anybody turned up to use round ball in those matches would be to pity his parents in case the word got around.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco650 View Post
    I believe a 300 yd round ball shot could be deadly although the shooter would have to be very experienced.

    Also, a follow up to Ballistics in Scotland's comment on the Baker Rifle. The guy who does the "British Muzzleloaders" channel on YouTube has several videos on the history of as well as shooting a reproduction Baker Rifle at ranges of 100, 200 & 300 yards and after seeing his results, I wouldn't want to be standing in the open when he's shooting his Baker at 300! His load is a .61 cal PBR over 95gr of 2f. Worth watching IMO.


    Rob from the Canadas who is the chap mentioned here has done a lot of good work with Baker rifles amongst others. The Baker in the hands of an experience shot like Plunkett could do fairly repeatable long range shots with a round ball. I am thinking that a lot of chaps experienced with their long rifles could pull of a long shot, perhaps 3 out of five being a strike at ranges far exceeding the Bess using its issue ammunition. Smooth bores are surprisingly accurate when loaded with tight fitting ball and patch and even proper cartridge, once again in the hands of experienced shots.
    As a kid I shot a lot of rabbits at 30 to 40 yards with a civilian version of a Pat 1842 percussion smoothbore musket. Patched round ball this gun was fitted with a fixed rear and a front sight and I was surprised at how well I shot with it when out hunting.
    Last edited by heelerau; 03-31-2018 at 02:56 AM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    I am not speaking of standing offhand.

    yeah I know .....just sayin tho.
    There are such things as benchreast matches at 100yards, open or peep sights.
    What I am proposing is scoping a fine, heavy barrelled round ball gun and stretch it out to 200, from a bench.
    that would be fun - and I bet you get better result than most would think - I'm guessing with a really good ball gun on a dead calm day you might do 4inches at 200 yards - good enough to do that headshot on a redcoat colonel (am told the redcoat brass had big heads)

  20. #40
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    There have always been, and presumably always will be, exceptional men with exceptional eyesight and exceptional ability to hold a position. They will always be the best shooters among us.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check