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Thread: WFN beats SWC for hunting?

  1. #21
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    waksupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven66 View Post
    The bolt got harder to close with 0.006" shims so I backed it down to 0.005". I shimmed the trigger too. I'll have to fiddle around with the magazine to address the feeding problem.
    Are you testing with the firing pin and mainspring removed?
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Are you testing with the firing pin and mainspring removed?
    I did not. Just to be sure, I watched the instructional video again and it says nothing about doing that. I did my fit testing on a fired case.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQm16hQDLLU

    Is it time to get headspace gauges to make sure it's in the proper range?

  3. #23
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    357 carbine with WFN=dead deer
    357 carbine with SWC=dead deer

  4. #24
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    The SWC is a compromise that does a number of things pretty good.

    It will bring down game quite well.

    For a given caliber, meplat diameter is the dominant feature with respect to effectiveness on game (terminal ballistics). Bigger meplats do hit harder. However, the bigger the meplat the more adverse the impact on aerodynamics (BC). At close ranges, BC does not matter. However, a "bad BC" boolit is not really "optimum" for most users.

    If you want a better BC with the same meplat, the “optimum” is some version of what I call a RNFP. It typically has profile that looks likes a truncated ogive. With that same meplat, a RNFP will have essentially the same terminal ballistics with a better BC.

    Now there are a lot of different profiles that have different labels and minor shape differences, but all are nearly identical in function as the RNFP. The simplest is the truncated cone (TC). It probably comes very close to a true RNFP in terms of BC. Other “variations” are usually more about how meplat size than anything else.

    For the RNFP family, the other significant choice is probably nose to edge transition. Some have very sharp edges around the meplat some are more rounded. The sharp edge is promoted as "harder hitting" but is going to be worse with BC. Given how soft lead alloys are, I really think that a small amount of rounding will not hit any less "hard", but will slip through the air noticeably better.

    All of difference above are small, but they are real.

    If you are shooting paper and whant clean holes, the SWC is better than any of the TC or RNFP type boolits.

    If you want a hunting boolit and are willing to give up “clean holes” on paper targets, a TC or any of the RFNP family boolits will be slightly better.

    if you want to mximize your effective range and minimize wind drift concerns, a RNFP with "medium" meplat size and slightly rounded edges would probably be better than one that has a bigger meplat and sharp edges.

    Regrdless, it will normally just boil down to looking at your choices and picking one. Anything with a decent mepat should work.

    The really improtant piece is to figuring out your max effective distance. This should be done by putting enough rounds through the gun at the range at various distances. If you picked something with a better BC, you should get a little more effective distance.
    Last edited by P Flados; 03-02-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  5. #25
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    Thank you all. I agree that in terms of putting deer down there's not much to choose between bullet styles given the short ranges and average deer sizes that I encounter. I will try a few different boolits from Cast Performance and Beartooth for starters and see what tends to feed the best before I buy a mold.

    Since I'm having that lower-cartridge-rim-gets-ahead-of-upper-cartridge-rim issue with the rotary magazine, has anyone else had this problem? Does it come down to not loading the magazine carefully enough, or are cartridge OALs less than the magazine opening possibly to blame?

  6. #26
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Look no further than the NOE 180 grain wfn or the Miha MP-358-180-RF. They are proven winners on game. Pictured is the MP version, which is a copy of the original Lar45 design. Amazing on game.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by outdoorfan View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Look no further than the NOE 180 grain wfn or the Miha MP-358-180-RF. They are proven winners on game. Pictured is the MP version, which is a copy of the original Lar45 design. Amazing on game.
    What powder charge do you use and what velocity do you get if I may ask?

  8. #28
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    Well several have beaten me to the punch; you've selected two good game boolit styles. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either and it's equally true that there is NO magic bullet or boolit. Swc or wfn will kill game when put into vital places at appropriate velocity. Before I knew better I'd killed a few whitetails down in NC with round nose .45 caliber boolits going fairly slow. . It'll all come down to which feeds better in your little walking carbine and or which shoot better

  9. #29
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    The 180 grain NOE or the 180 grain Milhec are virtually identical. I have both and they are indeed the thing for deer. 12 grains of 2400 in my 357/77 nets me 1470 fps.
    “Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
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  10. #30
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    In my Rossi 16" .357 magnum, 16 grains Lilgun gets ~1800 fps. ~1400 at 100 yards, ~1150 at 200 yards, and ~1050 at 300 yards. I've actually chronographed them that far. My furthest kill at this time is 125 yards. Mine weigh 190 grains with 50/50 ww/soft alloy, plus 1% tin.

  11. #31
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    They are close but not identical. The MIHEC casts closer to 190 and the NOE barely makes 180 w/ powdercoat. You can use the same charge unless youre walking up to the ragged edge of the load. I will admit 12 to 12.5 grains of 2400 is a great load. I also load the NOE 180 in 38 special cases to 357 magnum OAL or anywhere past the second TL groove with 2400. Or my 22 lr replacement load of 5.5 grains of Unique or 6.2 grains of HS6 in 38 special cases that I get for free by the 5 gallon bucket full.

    The second photo below is the MIHEC Boolit. As you can notice...it is not crimped in the crimp groove. Otherwise youre really going to be jamming it into the lands of a 77/357.

    The most accurate load was a complete longshot. 15 grains of H110, mixed brass and a small rifle primer put the first 6 shots through the same hole at 100 yards. .35 inches and the balance of the 10 shot group in less than 1.25 inches overall. This was with a 2-7 power scope from a bag on an indoor range.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 22 lr replacement.jpg   Picture1.jpg  
    Last edited by bluejay75; 03-03-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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  12. #32
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    You're lucky to have access to an indoor 100 yd range, not many around. Good Shooting!

    Dick

  13. #33
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    Guess I am just an old fart, all my molds but one are Keith type, have used the Keith type in 45,44,41, and 357 for about 50 years. Not knocking other designs just that the Keith type bullet has put a lot meat in the freezer for me. I am sure both types work, use whatever works best in your firearm.

    Rafe
    Last edited by Rafe Covington; 03-11-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven66 View Post
    Do the WFN designs perform enough better that I should just not bother with SWCs for hunting? After reading Veral Smith's book and this forum, it seems that the WFN is the preferred shape for hunting. I'm using a .357 Magnum carbine.
    Depends upon the weight of lead you are going to use. Heavier wide nose penetrates like a lighter SWC.
    So then you have the trade off of faster SWC or slower wider nose.
    Reckon it depends upon how you want to tailor the load, what feeds best in your piece, how flat shooting you want it...

  15. #35
    Boolit Master trapper9260's Avatar
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    In my Rossi SWC feeds good for 38spl and 357mag and for 44mag in my Marlin SWC feed ok also. If some was wonder about.Beside the RFN is good also.
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check