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Thread: PP failure with Lee 450-200 gr RN in the 45/70

  1. #1
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    PP failure with Lee 450-200 gr RN in the 45/70

    Wanted to see if I could get a plinking load using the Lee.450=200 gr RN bullet designed for Black Powder Handgun use.
    Tried PP up to .462 and using a load of Trailboss. in a 45/70 . Got 6 inch groups at 25 yards and could not hit paper at 50 yard. Back to the drawing board. Maybe the Lee 255 gr FN 45 cal would would better, Just a thought.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Were you able to recover any patch fragments?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  3. #3
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Sorry to say No. was at a public shooting range and the wind was blowing lightly.
    Range Master would not give me time to locate any.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    The SAAMI Specs for the 45/70 list the bore diameter at 0.450"D and the groove diameter at 0.456"D. Some suggestions to try:

    1. Slug your barrel to see if your rifle is per SAAMI specs or not.
    2. If SAAMI spec'd; size you CB to 0.451"D to 0.452"D,; i.e. 0.001"-0.002" greater than your bore diameter.
    3. PP and final size the PPCB to 0.456"D; i.e. final PPCB size should be at groove diameter or slightly less. Likewise, remove a few PP from some sized PPCB to make sure CB has not been resized under the 0.451"D-0.452"D. If CB still at 0.451"D -0452"D go to #4.
    4. Adjust the PP leading edge's location on CB so that when the round is chambered the leading edge of the PP is against the slight chamfer (of chamber) that leads into the rifling. Also, try to get the unpatched/bare forward cylindrical section of the CB to slightly engrave the rifling; i.e. about 1/16"-1/8" to promote some bore alignment while preventing de-bulleting on extraction of a loaded round.
    5. Now start playing with different powder charges to see what your group sizes are.
    6. Have fun and enjoy the journey! It will all come together. Remember what the Romans said: "He who perseveres is victorious!"

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    Last edited by CJR; 02-27-2018 at 12:07 PM. Reason: typos & technical

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    brstevns,
    The longer the barrel contact area is the more likely it will shoot straight.

    And here's the kicker; if you have a .458 or so diameter push through sizer then her a try.

    And if you have a minie mold to try as a bore rider then do that too!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    brstevns,
    The longer the barrel contact area is the more likely it will shoot straight.

    And here's the kicker; if you have a .458 or so diameter push through sizer then her a try.

    And if you have a minie mold to try as a bore rider then do that too!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Was thinking along the same thoughts,

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    By the way and just something else to play with, my brother's big stick load for 45-70 is a 500 grain paper patched soft lead swaged spitzer at 1800+.
    Asked him about it the other day just to check on the FPS. He proved that you do not need alloying to shoot accurately with smokeless loads. He also did away with the myth that bullets do not expand into the rifling with smokeless.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Smokeless actually has a faster pressure rise time than black. Well, that depends on the smokeless of course. The pressure rise trace looks faster with black because the peak is so much lower. I did a test with a particular boolit, alloy and powder charge on one rifle and compared that to a slightly softer alloy and the boolit expansion into the grooves was quite dramatic. I have the photo's somewhere - I'll try to find them and post them.

    Here they are.


    These two boolit were identical. I softened the alloy, cast the new boolit, sized it and knurled it and patched it in the same way, gave it the same powder charge and there was the result. The top boolit was knurled exactly as it appears - it was a two diameter with a taper from the nose section to the base section, where there is no knurling. I do have the powder charge written down somewhere. It was a low pressure load.

    I need to pull out that rifle and give it some serious testing! It's a five groove No4. Long Branch I think.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 03-04-2018 at 04:05 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Is this a case of having the mould and another use for it in the .45-70 because it seems like a lot of trouble to go to paper patching plinking rounds.

    My one experience with lightweight boolits for my .303 didn't go well. I had regular weight boolits doing pretty well (180 to 200 gr.) but wanted to try some high velocity lightweight boolits so made a 100 gr. pointy lightweight at 0.304" then patched as usual... except much more finicky to patch because they were so short! Accuracy was dismal.

    I came to the conclusion that the jump through the long throat was the main issue. PP boolits tend to like to be right up against the rifling and with the light boolit that wasn't possible. I figured close fit to the throat would work but not for me. I didn't pursue that lightweight boolit very long. PB boolits are faster to make and easier to load.

    I never used any gas check boolits in my Marlin or Siamese Mauser .45-70's right up to full loads. I'm lazy and cheap. PB boolits worked for me.

    Just curious why PP for a plinker is all. To each his own.

    Longbow

  10. #10
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Sounds silly I know, but the answer is because I wanted to give it a try. Half the fun for me is in the reloading. I found for me at least, I enjoy the challenge in PP a bullet. Keeps me out of trouble and being out of my wife's way.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I have a plinking PP boolit of 147 gr. It's short for a 303 but at subsonic velocities it was pretty **** accurate. The patch didn't come off. For me and my pig gun there is no other way of shooting anything with it's rust damaged bore and the boolit fits an unsized neck just fine. I never loaded a lot of those though. I can plink with my regular 170's just as fast or slow and quiet too and those chamber against the leade and be driven faster with the added benefit of being able to hold them for patching.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Not silly at all! I just wondered why you'd want to PP plinker boolits. When I plink I go through a lot of rounds and would hate to PP'ing them all.

    I wound up buying an Accurate 165 gr. TC mould for my .44 Marlin for that reason. I wanted a lightweight cheap plinker that didn't have much recoil for kids and ladies to shoot (and me too!). Its like a .22 on steroids! there is no recoil to speak of, it shoots fairly flat out to 50 yards anyway and make BIG holes in paper... you don't need a spotting scope to see them!

    I use the Mihec 316410 130 gr. in my .303's as well though I use filler under that one. PB boolit and it scoots along nicely.

    Anyway, I digress. Not much about paper patching there so not much help to you.

    One of the posters here says he is able to patch much undersize boolits up to be useful in other calibers. I can't recall calibers but from way undersize up, where the normal rule of thumb is cast boolit sized to bore or up to 0.002" larger then patch to groove diameter. I have had poor results patching a 0.301" boolit up for my .303's where it works fine in my .308. Knurl it up to 0.304" then it is fine. I cant imagine a much undersize boolit working but he says it does so it is worth playing if you have the time and interest. It certainly isn't hurting anyone and is perfectly safe. The worst that will happen is it won't work, but even getting there can be fun and educational.

    Staying out of trouble with the wife is a skill I have not mastered! I'm glad to know someone has. Maybe I should take up paper patching again...

    Longbow

  13. #13
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Not silly at all! I just wondered why you'd want to PP plinker boolits. When I plink I go through a lot of rounds and would hate to PP'ing them all.

    I wound up buying an Accurate 165 gr. TC mould for my .44 Marlin for that reason. I wanted a lightweight cheap plinker that didn't have much recoil for kids and ladies to shoot (and me too!). Its like a .22 on steroids! there is no recoil to speak of, it shoots fairly flat out to 50 yards anyway and make BIG holes in paper... you don't need a spotting scope to see them!

    I use the Mihec 316410 130 gr. in my .303's as well though I use filler under that one. PB boolit and it scoots along nicely.

    Anyway, I digress. Not much about paper patching there so not much help to you.

    One of the posters here says he is able to patch much undersize boolits up to be useful in other calibers. I can't recall calibers but from way undersize up, where the normal rule of thumb is cast boolit sized to bore or up to 0.002" larger then patch to groove diameter. I have had poor results patching a 0.301" boolit up for my .303's where it works fine in my .308. Knurl it up to 0.304" then it is fine. I cant imagine a much undersize boolit working but he says it does so it is worth playing if you have the time and interest. It certainly isn't hurting anyone and is perfectly safe. The worst that will happen is it won't work, but even getting there can be fun and educational.

    Staying out of trouble with the wife is a skill I have not mastered! I'm glad to know someone has. Maybe I should take up paper patching again...

    Longbow
    After 23 years of Marriage I have found a few ways to stay out of trouble. I did get yelled at for using her cloth cutting scissors for cutting my patches. Had to buy my own pair.
    I have been looking at that Lyman button collar mold, but need to safe up to get one. Not sure how well it is working for people.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If I still had my .45-70's ( or get one again which may be in the works) I would have a collar button mould!

    Personally I like the Lyman/Ideal original design but the NOW collar button is not bad. It's quite a bit heavier at 186 grs. But still light for .45-70.

    I bought collar button bullets back in the 70's and loaded them up over Unique. Like a big boy's .22! A nice bang, not any recoil to speak of and those big holes. If I'd seen a mould I would have bought it.

    Well, I must be slow learner. We've been married 34 years and I still seem to get myself in trouble! And I don't have a .45-70 anymore... that I'll have to work on!

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check