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Thread: PC and self defense boolits

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    PC and self defense boolits

    I remember reading a while back, can't remember where, about reloading and self defense shooting. The author was making the point that a prosecutor might use the fact that someone hand loaded their own ammo as a way of perhaps making the ammo more deadly or more designed to 'kill' etc, etc. and that it might be more liability for the defensive shooter if they defended themselves with hand loaded ammo.

    Now.. that said.. I know with some of it, it might be difficult to tell. I know plenty of commercial loaders still loading lead projectiles, and it's easy to match a factor loading both in looks and performance.

    Lately I've been loading plenty of 38spl, and 357mag, both boolits and j-words, and semi-jwords with flat points.

    Not surprising you can take my ammo and the factory ammo side by side, and for the 1-time shot cases that I cleaned and shined and kept the headstams together, you can't tell the difference on LRN, S-JFP/JHP, and ball I made from the commercial.

    In a situation like that if someone looked over your gun... they'd just see ammo.. even if they looked further and looked at the ammo, and looked around onle.. they could find matching ammo from that manufacturer. They'd have to go as far as pulling the ammo down and looking at the powder to make a determination.

    Now... powder coating.... I've stolen this pic from the 'what did you do in the reloading room thread' as an illustration.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...6&d=1519609413

    That's the kind of stuff that on first glance.. they are going to know is hand loaded.

    What are peoples opinions on that?

    Edit: By the way.. whoever made those PC beauties.. Kudos.. they look great. I'm not picking on you.. you just made great looking custom ammo that made a good example.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Don't worry about it, if you are in that situation there is more going on than what kind of bullets you used. I guess a case could be made against using AP for SD.
    Whatever!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    Sure, if you are neck see into a SD situation, what ammo your gun has means less, but it can be part of planning beforehand, to avoid extra possible tangles.

    To that effect, are there any places selling custom ammo with powder coated projectiles?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Similar subject that has some info, although it gets sidetracked a bit. Maybe that will help out in gathering more info anyway.


    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e&goto=newpost
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "A man ought ta do what he thinks is best" - "Hondo" Lane.(John Wayne)

    "If ya don't like my gate, ya don't have to swing on the hinges..." - L. Ackerman ( RIP)

    Enforce the Immigration laws & deport the illegal aliens. Quit fooling around!

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  5. #5
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    Not going to matter .. If your lawyer cant get that point removed you have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS
    I carry a Nuke50 because cleaning up the mess is Silly !!

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Similar subject that has some info, although it gets sidetracked a bit. Maybe that will help out in gathering more info anyway.


    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e&goto=newpost

    Actually, that was a good help.

    I believe it was Ayoob's article that I read.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    The arms I keep at the ready for SD contain ONLY commercial FMJ ammo. I trust it to do the job every time. Sure, there will be somone on here whine about having a few bad boys in commercial loads, but I have never had one.

    I have never had a handload I have done fail in the field. That said, I just feel more confident using commercial ammo rather than my PC’d hand-loads. And it removes that legal question of PC’d home-brew SD rounds.

    That’s what I do.

    Banger

  8. #8
    Boolit Man



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    I see where quite a few people say you cant carry reloaded ammo because a prosecutor may use that against you. However in all my reading and research, I have not found one instance where that has happened. I believe it is a old wife's tale that keeps being perpetuated on the internet. I wish someone would show one instance of this happening instead of just saying what they read from someone else who said it. Please dont quote a source such as my wife's sister's husband's uncle said it happened to his cousin.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    This is why I asked. The other article does bring up an opinion from Ayoob. Depending on who you are, that may or may not be expert opinion.

  10. #10
    Boolit Man



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    He may or may not be considered an expert, but that is his opinion only. Nothing to back up his opinion. Where are the facts - the actual situations? Everybody just takes what someone says and runs with it - repeating it aud nauseum thinking if it is said enough times it must be true. In my former life before retirement - that was called circular reporting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    This is why I asked. The other article does bring up an opinion from Ayoob. Depending on who you are, that may or may not be expert opinion.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I use clear pc and load new starline cases. Can't tell em from Buffalo bore.
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by rdwarrior View Post
    He may or may not be considered an expert, but that is his opinion only. Nothing to back up his opinion. Where are the facts - the actual situations? Everybody just takes what someone says and runs with it - repeating it aud nauseum thinking if it is said enough times it must be true. In my former life before retirement - that was called circular reporting.
    Again, which is WHY, I brought up the topic. Perhaps if someone has some of Ayoobs works, they could look for references possibly cited?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master MyFlatline's Avatar
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    Load em, and pray to God you never have to use them, not because they are reloads either. I shoot what I practice with, that is my defense.

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post
    The arms I keep at the ready for SD contain ONLY commercial FMJ ammo. I trust it to do the job every time. Sure, there will be somone on here whine about having a few bad boys in commercial loads, but I have never had one.

    I have never had a handload I have done fail in the field. That said, I just feel more confident using commercial ammo rather than my PC’d hand-loads. And it removes that legal question of PC’d home-brew SD rounds.

    That’s what I do.

    Banger
    This is what I do. I suspect that they have it all wrong, as I don't cast and reload nearly as deadly of ammo as the stuff I keep in my gun by the bed. Is it ironic that a less lethal handload would be what gets you in trouble? (I'm not suggesting that some don't make just as lethal handholds. I don't handload +P j-word HPs, but that's what is in my clips, and yes I do practice with them on occasion, though they are expensive.)

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Something I do not hear mentioned often, if at all, is not what sort of firearm or type of cartridge/round, or even boolit vs bullet used in self defense/shooting trials. That "something" is how often one shoots.

    I think that any attorney that is bringing up the type of firearm used, the type of boolit/bullet, or the source of manufacturer, be it a reloader or a factory, is going to work their way into..."So, Mr John Doe. Just how often do you practice & shoot your "weapon"?( He is not gonna say gun, or firearm. ) Daily? Weekly? Monthly? etc...

    Regardless of your other criteria such a boolit/bullet, etc.

    I think he will also try to focus on your "mindset" as well. Trying to paint a bleak picture of your shooting habits & making it seem as though you were harboring a , "Just looking for a fight", type attitude & it was just a matter of time before you were involved in some sort of altercation that ended up with you shooting. Regardless of who was in danger.. You, your family, a friend or even another person who you did not even know...

    I would venture to guess is that one should do & use anything the see fit in "self defense", but remember that the attorney(s) going after you, if you are prosecuted or even in a civil case, are going to try to use ANYTHING they can to get their name "in lights" & "in the news" to further themselves & their aspirations, as well as make as much $$ as they can for the least amoiunt of effort...

    Do NOT help them. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~!! Let YOUR ATTORNEY do the talking. The LEOs are not going to help you, it is their job to collect as much evidence as they can & let the courts sort it out...

    There is a reason you get the Miranda rights read to ya. Part of that reason is to keep you from providing evidence AGAINST yourself. The other is so everyone know that if you say anything, it Can & Will be used against ya. Clear as a bell.. Don't do it. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~!

    When they say, "tell us your side of the story" or something like that, if you have been shooting, self defense or not, & even before the give ya those Miranda rights. I repeat... KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~!!

    "You have the right to remain silent!!! ANYTHING you say, CAN & "WILL" be USED AGAINST you~!

    We can try to figure out what "might be" the best firearm, the best type of boolit/bullet, the best way to carry, etc.. All of those types of variables. but, if ya don't KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~! & let your attorney ( hopefully a good one & THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD) do the talking, you are likely, even if you were justified, have alot more trouble in the end than if you just "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~!.

    Get the point?


    G'Luck! in whatever any of ya decide & I hope you never have to use ANY type of weapon to defend your self or anyone else you feel the need to do so. Just remember...

    KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT~!, unless it is YOUR attorney you are telling what ya know.




    P.S. - If I am "preaching to the choir", then you already knew what I was saying. I just posted it before you did right? Slowpoke... LOL
    Last edited by JBinMN; 02-26-2018 at 10:09 PM.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "A man ought ta do what he thinks is best" - "Hondo" Lane.(John Wayne)

    "If ya don't like my gate, ya don't have to swing on the hinges..." - L. Ackerman ( RIP)

    Enforce the Immigration laws & deport the illegal aliens. Quit fooling around!

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

  16. #16
    Boolit Master 43PU's Avatar
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    From personal experience, that I don’t want to elaborate on but they never asked me...

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 43PU View Post
    From personal experience, that I don’t want to elaborate on but they never asked me...
    Not sure who you were replying to, but since ya posted just after me, I will reckon it was "me".

    All I can say is... "Good for you!"
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "A man ought ta do what he thinks is best" - "Hondo" Lane.(John Wayne)

    "If ya don't like my gate, ya don't have to swing on the hinges..." - L. Ackerman ( RIP)

    Enforce the Immigration laws & deport the illegal aliens. Quit fooling around!

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

  18. #18
    Boolit Master KVO's Avatar
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    Another angle is that there is no ambiguity who fired which shots upon recovering projectiles during the crime scene analysis.

    "Ladies and gentlemen, clearly my client did not injure any of the innocent bystanders in this case. As you can see in exhibit A, the pastel purple pentagonal hollow points were only recovered from the assailant and the brick wall behind him. All of the stray bullets causing third party damages were FMJ."

  19. #19
    Boolit Master






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    there has never been anyone that was convicted of anything because of using a handload or any bullet in a justified shooting. Pretty touch to convict someone for breaking a law that doesn't exist.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  20. #20
    Boolit Master



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    "Something I do not hear mentioned often, if at all, is not what sort of firearm or type of cartridge/round, or even boolit vs bullet used in self defense/shooting trials. That "something" is how often one shoots."

    I have discussed this issue many times
    People v Fish
    Trial judge allowed evidence that he used a 10mm, "more powerful than police handguns"
    The judge also allowed evidence that he had "lots of guns and ammunition" and that Mr. Fish took tactical training classes.
    Thank God the Trial judge was reversed on appeal, but we know for sure a District Attorney has been allowed to present such evidence at trial.
    The case relied on by the Ayboobites, involved a man who murdered his girlfriend. The trial judge would not allow expert testimony, by the defense, a mistake in my opinion, regarding the killer's reloaded ammunition.
    Trial judges are typically partisian hacks. There are some good ones, but don't count on it. And don't kill your girlfriend.
    No one have ever been convicted of a crime for using reloaded/handloaded ammunition in self defense ever. If you read the cases, it is clear the color of your ammunition is immaterial, no pun intended.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check