PC and self defense boolits

[mold maker]

I totally trust my hand loads, practiced with in my gun, for SD. If not the case, why carry? If used in SD I'm trusting it to save my life or someone probably close to me. In either case I will only use what I totally trust.
Worrying about the legal matters after the fact is a lawyers job. The fact that I'm alive says my ammo choice worked, and that's all that matters.

[JBinMN]

It does not matter what color or type of wood the stick ya use to fend off an assailant. Hickory , Oak, Ash, whatever... Natural, stained or painted, no matter.

The color of the car ya drive when an accident happens is also of no consequence. There is no reason to be concerned about something that is really irrelevant.

Do ya think they care that ya used Winchester cases or Remington? Tulas primers, Federal or Wolf primers? Those Wolf primers sound ferocious, & dangerous, don't they?

Snubnose, 4 inch barrel, 7-1/2 " bbl?

What is gonna matter is, if the person was justified in using self defense or not. Not the tool or the components of a tool.

Snap on, Craftsman, or China made wrench to fend them off & injure or kill them? Adjustable, open end, or box? It ain't gonna matter...

This topic seems to have been discussed here on more than one occasion with only a change in something like a component.

Is it not time to just give it a rest?

If you are worried that you should use factory ammo, or the same as the LEO in your area instead of cast or handloaded rounds, then IMO, you are likely overthinking the whole thing.

The likelihood of someone who carries actually needing to be in the situation to shoot someone is already small. If you are good at " situational awareness", and don't allow yourself, or those who you wish to protect, to get into places & situations where you would need to bring out your firearm, you won't need it... so the worry about the type of round is kind of moot.

I know, I know... Folks can discuss anything they want.. Who am I to discourage anyone from posting.

I am not. I am just pointing out the uselessness of continuing to post about something that is just a, "What IF?, with no way of knowing the outcome until it happens, thus there is apparently No Correct answer.

Just how long do ya whip the dead horse before ya realize it is not gonna get up & run?

Now, can anyone point me to a , "What is the Best ???" topic? Those are always full of such educational material, aren't they?

[Soundguy]

If you are good at " situational awareness", and don't allow yourself, or those who you wish to protect, to get into places & situations where you would need to bring out your firearm, you won't need it

By this statement, you are saying that situations awareness will keep you from needing to bring out your firearm.

It is if course, a defacto, false statement.

If you are home and someone breaks in to harm you,you will need to bring that firearm out, and situational awareness didn't save you, prevent it, or factor at all.

That's one of those exceptions, where you aren't looking for trouble, but trouble comes looking for you.

I know many of you dismiss these concepts as minutia, however the gun climate is changing rapidly. The Nevada and parkland shooting are getting gun legislation passed even in very conservative pro gun states.

And those that feel that surviving an attack is all that matters, has never researched the financial, and social/mental cost of a pist shooting defense.

I know a guy that had a 6 figure income, was educated, clean nose, etc. Killed someone, and it took everything he had, and he went in debt 6 figures, plus it took his brother down. He was financially trying to support him. Both guts went broke, brother list his business, marriage, etc.

Sure the guy lived, but the collateral damage was far reaching and devastating.

That's why attention to seeming minutia pre defense can pay dividends later.

[redhawk0]

I carry reloads. I load with the nastiest fastest expanding HP bullet (J-word) I can buy. My objective is stop someone FAST and if that means a 3-4" exit wound...and if it pulls heart/lung out through on its way....then so be it. I'll deal with the consequences later since I'll still be alive...and likely he/she won't. Dead is dead...but I do believe in humane kills....and not just for game.

just my philosophy on the subject.

redhawk

[JBinMN]

Note: I was typing this reply when ya added/edited your post. I only replied to the original un editted/added to post quoted below, when I posted. If there is any confusion.

By this statement, you are saying that situations awareness will keep you from needing to bring out your firearm.

It is if course, a defacto, false statement.

If you are home and someone breaks in to harm you,you will need to bring that firearm out, and situational awareness didn't save you, prevent it, or factor at all.

I guess in my being earnest to post, I was not "specific" in addressing ALL situations, but simply used that as a "blanket statement" that if one does not put oneself into the situation of needing to draw their firearm by removing the chances of being in a place that one would need to use it, the likelihood of using it drops.

I am not going to argue with ya about "situations".

It still does not matter what sort of firearm ya use to protect yourself, or ANY thing used as a weapon in SELF DEFENSE if the use is JUSTIFIED. Nor does it matter what color, shape, type of manufacture be it factory or home made, primitive or modern. It is not gonna matter. What IS gonna matter the MOST, is whether it was a JUSTIFIED act.

HOME or not. Seems to me that "situational awareness" applies at home as well, BTW, since whether you are there or not, & you leave your doors & windows open when there is a likelihood that someone will see that as a free, easy entry, as well as any conditions you have that might make it apparent to anyone wishing to do you harm that it is "easy pickings" to get access, than your "situational awareness" might want to be applied to prevent such easy access.

IF, by chance , you are talking about some home invaders intent on breaching & attacking everyone, then I suggest you either do a better job of preventing them from ever gaining entry, move, or be prepared to gun them down or whatever you have handy to stop the intrusion.

Regardless, The color of your boolits is not gonna be a factor, IMO, and the continued discussion of it is is approaching what Outpost75 once said about weighing charges, it could be considered "mental masturbation" to even keep considering it.

Go on & have fun discussing. I am not gonna say anymore here. It is quickly becoming a waste of my time. Particularly, arguing about semantics & not covering all factors of a moot subject in a previous post.

Have a great day!


Still out looking for more, "What is the Best ???" topics. They are about as informative if ya count multiple varied "opinions", as good info...

[Lloyd Smale]

don't know if your right or not Jmort. I'm sure it would be brought up but id bet a defense attorney would have it throw out real fast. Its about like using the fact that a bank robber had opened his safe at home often to say hes more likely to rob the safe at that bank. Or someone who drives a lot is more likely to steal a car.

"Something I do not hear mentioned often, if at all, is not what sort of firearm or type of cartridge/round, or even boolit vs bullet used in self defense/shooting trials. That "something" is how often one shoots."

I have discussed this issue many times
People v Fish
Trial judge allowed evidence that he used a 10mm, "more powerful than police handguns"
The judge also allowed evidence that he had "lots of guns and ammunition" and that Mr. Fish took tactical training classes.
Thank God the Trial judge was reversed on appeal, but we know for sure a District Attorney has been allowed to present such evidence at trial.
The case relied on by the Ayboobites, involved a man who murdered his girlfriend. The trial judge would not allow expert testimony, by the defense, a mistake in my opinion, regarding the killer's reloaded ammunition.
Trial judges are typically partisian hacks. There are some good ones, but don't count on it. And don't kill your girlfriend.
No one have ever been convicted of a crime for using reloaded/handloaded ammunition in self defense ever. If you read the cases, it is clear the color of your ammunition is immaterial, no pun intended.

[jmort]

"And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be."
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/n.../#.WqKOI9xMGf0

[fredj338]

The only place handloaded ammo may come up would be a civil case. A good shoot is just that, regardless of mods to the gun or your ammo. Civil cases, everything is on the table. So I carry factory ammo, UNLESS I am carrying ammo out in the boondocks, like for a 44mag. Then I would have a downloaded speedloader with something less powerful for better control in rapid DA firing & less penetration of the target. Hard to argue that one in court IMO. The Fish case, poor attorney that couldn't argue why one would carry "more powerful" gun/ammo in the woods.
You just gain so little from tryng to load your own SD ammo, buy a 100rds, test 50 & call it good. That should last you at least a couple years of rotation.

[wills]

n May 11, 2004, 57-year-old Harold Fish, a retired high school teacher, was completing a solo hike in a remote area of the Coconino National Forest near Strawberry, Arizona, when he saw 43-year-old Grant Kuenzli lying on the ground near a car. Fish waved at Kuenzli, whom he did not know, and two unleashed dogs came charging at him.

Fish yelled at Kuenzli to corral the dogs and, when nothing happened, he pulled a 10-millimeter semi-automatic pistol from his backpack and fired a warning shot into the ground. The dogs scattered, but then, according to Fish, Kuenzli himself charged at Fish, threatening to kill him.

Fish fired three shots and killed Kuenzli, a former firefighter who was living out of his car in the forest. Fish covered Kuenzli’s body with a tarp and walked to a highway where he flagged down a motorist who summoned emergency personnel.

In the days after the shooting, a Coconino County deputy sheriff stated publicly that the shooting was a case of self-defense, sparking a public debate between citizens who believed the shooting was unwarranted and the National Rifle Association, which supported Fish. The deputy was removed from the case and on June 4, 2004, Fish was arrested and charged with second-degree murder.

By the time Fish, who had no criminal record, went on trial in Coconino County Superior Court in the summer of 2006, the case had become the focal point of a public debate over what constitutes self-defense, the dangers of unleashed dogs and hiker safety on public land.

At trial, the prosecution presented testimony from a forensic expert that the angle of entry of the bullets into Kuenzli’s body showed the wounds were defensive. One of the bullets pierced Kuenzli’s hand and arm before striking his chest, the expert said, indicating he had a hand raised in self-defense, and, therefore, that Fish was not acting in self-defense. Fish’s attorneys had sought to bar the testimony as speculative, but the judge permitted the testimony. On the other hand, the judge barred the defense from presenting the testimony of a defense investigator who had examined the crime scene and the path taken by Kuenzli and would have testified that the evidence showed Kuenzli was aggressively moving toward Fish.

Fish did not testify, but his wife and daughter, as well as several witnesses testified to the dogs’ propensity for aggression and violence. The jury also heard a portion of Fish’s grand jury testimony in which he said that he felt in fear of his life when Kuenzli charged him. The incident lasted no more than 10 seconds, according to the testimony.

Fish’s defense attorneys tried to present evidence of Kuenzli’s violent behavior on other occasions when he thought his dogs were attacked, but the judge refused to allow the jury to hear that evidence.

On June 14, 2006, Fish was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to the minimum term, 10 years in prison.

Later that same year, the Arizona legislature enacted a law that expands the rights of citizens to use lethal force when attacked and requires the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a criminal defendant was not acting in self-defense in order to get a conviction. Before that the defendant had to prove that he was acting in self-defense.

In July 2009, the Arizona Court of Appeals reversed Fish’s conviction because the trial judge failed to give necessary jury instructions, and because the judge improperly excluded evidence of Kuenzli’s past acts of violence which Fish attempted to present to support his claim that Kuenzli was the aggressor.

The appellate court noted that the evidence about Kuenzli’s background was “highly sanitized,” and that if permitted, numerous witnesses would have described Kuenzli as “irrationally aggressive and violent and extremely frightening.”

Fish was released from prison on bond on July 21, 2009. On December 1, 2009, the Arizona Supreme Court rejected the prosecution’s request to review the case. The Coconino County District Attorney’s office then dismissed the case.

– Maurice Possley

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...px?caseid=4266

[wills]

I remember reading a while back, can't remember where, about reloading and self defense shooting. The author was making the point that a prosecutor might use the fact that someone hand loaded their own ammo as a way of perhaps making the ammo more deadly or more designed to 'kill' etc, etc. and that it might be more liability for the defensive shooter if they defended themselves with hand loaded ammo.











What are peoples opinions on that?

Edit: By the way.. whoever made those PC beauties.. Kudos.. they look great. I'm not picking on you.. you just made great looking custom ammo that

Some prosecutors will try anything. It does not mean he will get away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Nifong

http://kxan.com/investigative-story/...-by-state-bar/

[dsh1106]

This is the same discussion that a lot of us had back in the 80 about the Teflon coated bullets that used to be available. The coating then Teflon just like PC was to protect the barrel, nothing more nothing less...

evolve the media... it all goes downhill with hype and lies

[jmort]

"Some prosecutors will try anything. It does not mean he will get away with it."

In People v Fish the prosecutor did get away with it
The trial judge put him in prison
That an appellate court stepped in was fortuitous, and only then was he was released from prison.

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup theres no bullet that is without some question. A fmj could be said to be made to penetrate more. A lead bullet could be argued that the lube would infect even in the bullet didn't kill. A hp expands, So does a soft point. Any bullet type could be twisted into a man using some specialized killing machine. Its why I doesn't hold up in court. The fact that it was immediately objected to shows that fish didn't have much of an attorney. Same thing for the 10mm. It wasn't like he was on the grade school playground. He was out in the woods. there isn't to many places in the US that doesn't have at least something dangerous in the woods. As to handloaded ammo it could also be argued that most of it is loaded to lower velocitys then factory ammo and most of it is not loaded with the newest high tech bullet made for that caliber. It could also be argued that Fish didn't even carry a gun with the intent of possibly using it on a human. He was in the woods with a woods protection gun. Pretty small percentage of civilians that actually carry a 10mm for ccw. I do carry my 29 but its mostly on days when I will be in the woods. bottom line is it looks like this trail was a cluster and so much so that Arizona realized this judge and jury railroaded this guy and even to the extent they felt like they needed to change the law so it wouldn't happen again. Even with all that said it sure didn't change the fact that carrying concealed with handloads is just as legal as with factory ammo. That same snaky prosecutor would have just argued that fish went to the store to buy some high tech hps to make sure whatever he shot didn't have a chance to make it to the hospital and the same crappy judge would have allowed that too.

[Walkingwolf]

Carry what you want to carry.

[Shawlerbrook]

Would be an issue to argue in a civil suit. Personally, from the many leos and attorneys I have had discussions with over the years, I stick to Factory ammo for self defense. Just gives a shark personal injury attorney one less thing to attack. To each his own.

[wills]

Did a quick search, and did not find any reported cases involving handloads. I recall Johnny Holmes, when he was District Attorney in Houston being quoted as saying something to the effect that either you have justification for the use of deadly force or you do not, and if you do it does not matter what you use.

[Walkingwolf]

Did a quick search, and did not find any reported cases involving handloads. I recall Johnny Holmes, when he was District Attorney in Houston being quoted as saying something to the effect that either you have justification for the use of deadly force or you do not, and if you do it does not matter what you use.

This is what I was told by a 2A attorney, the rest is marketing for the ammo companies for very expensive self defense ammo. Plus the self marketing of some so called experts who have never been in a self defense shooting, and probably has never made a major felony arrest.

The same persons claim that 22lr should not be used for SD, yet there are so many success stories out there of 22lr saving lives. To make it simple, if you want to carry hand loads, do it, and ignore the control people. Just make sure any shooting is justified, if it is not you are screwed no matter what fantastic factory load you are carrying.

I also think it is important to understand that anything you say can, and will be used against you, including internet posts. Also take training from responsible trainers, because if your trainer is a known nut case it will be brought up in trial.

[firefly1957]

Here in Michigan our laws have been changed for the better for anyone that uses lethal force against a criminal in the past a man who did a good shoot was found guilty because he used ammo that was "more deadly". It was overturned but the Black Talon ammo and some of the guys statements from before the shooting were used against him by a activist prosecutor and the jury found him guilty.
I use Powder coated bullets in one EDC gun because it is most likely to be used for vermin control on my land it may also go to town with me were crime is low . My second concealment pistol get Corebon 165 gr. +P hollow point ammo and is carried if i travel further than locally.

[MyFlatline]

This is what I was told by a 2A attorney, the rest is marketing for the ammo companies for very expensive self defense ammo. Plus the self marketing of some so called experts who have never been in a self defense shooting, and probably has never made a major felony arrest.

The same persons claim that 22lr should not be used for SD, yet there are so many success stories out there of 22lr saving lives. To make it simple, if you want to carry hand loads, do it, and ignore the control people. Just make sure any shooting is justified, if it is not you are screwed no matter what fantastic factory load you are carrying.

I also think it is important to understand that anything you say can, and will be used against you, including internet posts. Also take training from responsible trainers, because if your trainer is a known nut case it will be brought up in trial.

I say carry what you feel comfortable with..Carrying something that you cant shoot will only get you dead in a life or death situation. I prefer to take my chances with the courts verses and armed intruder..Simple logic.

[Walkingwolf]

Here in Michigan our laws have been changed for the better for anyone that uses lethal force against a criminal in the past a man who did a good shoot was found guilty because he used ammo that was "more deadly". It was overturned but the Black Talon ammo and some of the guys statements from before the shooting were used against him by a activist prosecutor and the jury found him guilty.
I use Powder coated bullets in one EDC gun because it is most likely to be used for vermin control on my land it may also go to town with me were crime is low . My second concealment pistol get Corebon 165 gr. +P hollow point ammo and is carried if i travel further than locally.

Do you have more information about this man? As for myself the only factory ammo I use is 22lr.