NOE 311291 w 20gr 2400 in .30-06

[straphanger]

I got a new NOE mold recently for their version of 311291. I haven't had an opportunity to cast w it yet, but I have been looking a load data. I have a variety of 03 Spgfld rifles and M1s I might try it in.

Looking through the old Lyman 44 load manual for 30-06, the 311291 tab shows an "accuracy load" note as follows:

2400 powder, 20 grains, 1750 fps

Of course this is #2 alloy w gas check.

Has anyone shot this load? I haven't seen mention of it in my reading of old posts in the board.

[Ben]

I stop at 18.0 grs.

[Larry Gibson]

Just this last week I tested some 311041s (very similar to 311291 except for flat nose) in my 24" barreled M70 30-06. I used A 2400 with a 1 to 1 1/2 gr Dacron filler in LC Match cases with CCI #34 primers. The bullets were cast of #2 alloy and AC'd, sized at .311, lubed with 2500+ and GC'd with Hornady's. I ran 10 shot incremental tests with and w/o the Dacron filler in increments of 1 gr testing 18 through 21 gr.

W/o the Dacron filler accuracy was poor at 3 to 5"+. Additionally the ESs were poor running over 100 fps with attendant high SDs.

Accuracy with the Dacron filler was excellent with the 10 shot groups of 17 through 20 gr running 1 3/4" to 2 1/4". The 17 through 20 gr loads allhad ESs from 32 to 37 fps with SDs of 10 through12 fps. The velocity of the 20 gr load was 1827 fps. The 21 gr load did not fair as well with 3 1/8" group at 1878 fps with an ES of 50 fps and an SD of 14 fps. The 18 gr load at 1688 fps with an ES of 32 fps and an SD of 11 fps gave the best accuracy of the test.

[straphanger]

Just this last week I tested some 311041s (very similar to 311291 except for flat nose) in my 24" barreled M70 30-06. I used A 2400 with a 1 to 1 1/2 gr Dacron filler in LC Match cases with CCI #34 primers. The bullets were cast of #2 alloy and AC'd, sized at .311, lubed with 2500+ and GC'd with Hornady's. I ran 10 shot incremental tests with and w/o the Dacron filler in increments of 1 gr testing 18 through 21 gr.

W/o the Dacron filler accuracy was poor at 3 to 5"+. Additionally the ESs were poor running over 100 fps with attendant high SDs.

Accuracy with the Dacron filler was excellent with the 10 shot groups of 17 through 20 gr running 1 3/4" to 2 1/4". The 17 through 20 gr loads allhad ESs from 32 to 37 fps with SDs of 10 through12 fps. The velocity of the 20 gr load was 1827 fps. The 21 gr load did not fair as well with 3 1/8" group at 1878 fps with an ES of 50 fps and an SD of 14 fps. The 18 gr load at 1688 fps with an ES of 11 and an SD of 11 fps gave the best accuracy of the test.

Interesting results. Thank you.

The SD is remarkable. I had been under the impression from other comments that 2400 was not "position sensitive". Looks like I need to read up on how to use dacron filler!

[Larry Gibson]

The ES of the 18 gr load w/Dacron should be 32 fps with an SD of 11 fps.........very good indeed for a 10 shot test string.

[georgerkahn]

Larry Gibson and others: I have both (311041 and 311291) moulds, and employ the -041 in my .30WCFs and .30REMs; the -291 in my '06s. That said, I use same (#34) primers and powder -- 2400- -- with my preferred charging at 16.4 grains. I do not use Dacron, instead using an old Redding powder measure to dispense Puff-lon above the smokeless powder, filling case to level of seated bullet's bottom -- not compressed load but flush...
My curiosity suggests two questions: 1/ What/where is the Dacron you use -- e.g., do they sell it in a bag at, say, Wal*Mart? and, 2/ Have you tried/used Puff-lon? Imho, it performs marvelously -- EXCEPT it is dirty stuff -- blowing it all over the rifles and bench, shooting loads with it. (http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html)
geo

[dg31872]

Question: What is it about the Dacron that makes the difference?
Is it solely because the powder is close to the primer or does the Dacron do something else, too?

[georgerkahn]

I am of impression that a uniform distribution of powder resting against the primer-pocket of case produces the most uniform -- e.g., reliably accurate -- ignition. Those in the United Kingdom have been taught the (shooting) practice of always pointing their respective barrels sky-ward, and then lowering toward horizontal for their shot, to insure this. Rather than this practice, if you apply "something" to accomplish same, you do not need the UK raise and lower to achieve similar results. As I posted, I "discovered" Puff-lon, reading glittering testimonies about it in Handloader or Rifle magazine, sent off to purchase/try some, and have been using it in some of my loads, since (25+ years). For me, it is a natural using cast bullets where the powder does not fill case: my .30 target loads.
I have never used "Dacron" hence my post/query. However, again, in addition to the lubricating, cleaning, and uniforming velocity claims of the Puff-lon, I believe the main purpose of either/both is to keep the powder uniformly in contact with primer.
geo

[Streetwalker]

I have used both Puff-lon and Dacron and much prefer Dacron. I use just a pinch [about 1 to 1 1/2 gr.] very lightly tamped into the case, not compressed. Typically, the Dacron will come up to the neck/shoulder junction with some of the longer strands extending into the neck somewhat. The bullet is then seated in the usual fashion though I use a light crimp in virtually all my cast loads using a Lee crimp die. The Dacron I use is purchased at our local Wal-Mart in the craft or houswares section. It comes in a bag about the size of a small pillow and costs just a few bucks-a bag will provide enough Dacron for many hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds. As far as 2400 powder is concerned, I have found that the use of a magnum primer needs to be tried when developing loads with this powder. I have and still use a lot of 2400 and most of my most accurate loads shoot best with just the use of a magnum primer versus the use of Dacron, especially with my favorite, the 6.5 Swede.

[georgerkahn]

Thanks, Streeetwalker -- to the best of my limited knowledge, both the #34 and #41 primers from CCI are rated in the magnum primer class -- definitely hotter than those they replace. The main reason I use these is due to their harder cup strength, hopefully preventing slam fires from an errant free-floating firing pin / striker. They are, after all, the "military" primers used precisely for this reason. Next trip to Wally-world, I may just look up and purchase some Dacron -- now that, thanks to you, I know where to get some.
geo
As a "PS", I, too use Lee Factory Crimp dies in pretty much all the calibers I load, including these.
g

[Larry Gibson]

Guys

A read of post #2 in the sticky thread on proper use of fillers and then scan through the rest of the thread will answer most of your questions about Dacron, where to get it and it's use.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers

[Larry Gibson]

georgerkahn

Yes I have used pufflon, grex and several other similar fillers. They all work but are a PITA to use, make a mess on the bench and I also get it all blown back on the bench with a headwind.....I prefer the easy of the Dacron filler. Especially when using batting, cutting it into strips and then into a chunk the required size. Occasionally with larger cartridges such as the 45-70 where 1 1/2+ gr are used I still can get some blown back at me. Over the years I have tried most everything mentioned and always come back to Dacron.

[Larry Gibson]

Question: What is it about the Dacron that makes the difference?
Is it solely because the powder is close to the primer or does the Dacron do something else, too?

The Dacron, like all fillers, holds the powder in one position next to the primer. Also it reduces case capacity which is why it will raise pressures slightly. Some fillers will raise pressures substantially such as COW. I do not recommend those other fillers. I only recommend Dacron and the plastic type fillers such as pufflon, grex, etc.

[straphanger]

Guys

A read of post #2 in the sticky thread on proper use of fillers and then scan through the rest of the thread will answer most of your questions about Dacron, where to get it and it's use.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers

I have read the filler thread a couple of times and acquired some polyester batting. I just want to make sure I understand how to install it:

1.Cut a rectangular block of the batting weighing from 1/2-1 1/2 grains depending on the application.

2.Push the batting cube as cut with a rod into the case to the base of the case neck.

3.Seat the bullet to complete the positioning.

Just so I am clear, you don't "expand" or stretch the dacron cube/block before stuffing it into the case? You just put the dacron block as cut on the top of the case and push it in. Is that correct?

Since we are trying to avoid a "wad", do I assume that the dacron block once deformed by being pushed through the neck into the body of the case and to its final position by the bullet, then expands on its on toward the powder to fill most of the space between the bullet and the powder?

Not trying to be tendentious! Just want to make sure I understand how this works and how to do it the right way!

[Larry Gibson]

straphanger

Just so I am clear, you don't "expand" or stretch the dacron cube/block before stuffing it into the case? You just put the dacron block as cut on the top of the case and push it in. Is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

Since we are trying to avoid a "wad", do I assume that the dacron block once deformed by being pushed through the neck into the body of the case and to its final position by the bullet, then expands on its on toward the powder to fill most of the space between the bullet and the powder?

Yes, that is also correct.

[straphanger]

Got it! Thank you for the reply.

Now all I need is decent weather to cast some bullets and I will give that 18 grain load a try...

[straphanger]

Made it to the range a few times and worked on finding a load for the NOE 311291 that worked well in my NRA Sporter clone. Lots of interruptions with the weather and etc, but I finally managed a load that shows promise. My last and best effort target is attached. The range is 100yds, sight is a Lyman 48/17a.The load details are:

NOE 311291 (scrap) sized 310 w 2500 lube
16.0 2400
1 gr dacron filler
RP brass, neck sized, Lyman M die
WLR primer
3.015 oal