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Thread: 38 Special +P

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master


    stubshaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    My elderly father remarked after shooting 6 .357 158grhp from his S&W m66 snub- "that's stupid- give me back my .38 Special shells!" I agree. Bullet placement, bullet placement, and oh yeah- bullet placement.
    With the HP "J" words available today, and some of the penta-point molds that I have. would rather shoot a slightly slower accurate round than squeeze out the last erg of velocity. I have tested 20 to 1 PC boolits in both 44 and 38 cal and have gotten full expansion at 800fps. Boosting them higher is fruitless.
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

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  2. #22
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    It's like the difference between a Porsche, and a VW Beetle. They both get you from point A to B at the posted speed limit. Nothing wrong with having a Porsche, but don't put down VW for not recommending using a Beetle drive over the speed limit. Of course the dealer would like to sell you the Porsche over the VW, just like the ammo manufacturers. I believe both manufacturers recommend standard gas BTW.

    The CA rep only stated the truth, for most SD purposes both standard, and +P will get the job done. A four inch barrel is more efficient than a two inch barrel. That is no horse hockey.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    Lowbudget shooter, go to "Luckylabs ammo" and start with the 9mm ballistic tests and also view the tests for 38, 357, 40 S&W, and 45acp. You will see some standard loads there was a few feet per second over other +P loads with the same weight bullet. Also you will see that in a short barrel gun most of the +P loads were only 20 to 40 fps faster then a standard load. If that +P load produces a severe muzzle flash, why put up with it over a standard load that has less tendency to blind you while shooting in a dark room of your house at nighttime against a intruder.
    While there click on the photos of the five bullets fired in each test and see which were the better defensive loads. that old FBI lead SWC load is not as great as some seem to think it is. It was good 25 years ago, but more modern bullets have surpassed it for defense work.

    The test I am referring too are factory loads, not hand loads that can be adjusted for higher velocities in very hot +P loads.
    Last edited by knifemaker; 02-23-2018 at 05:04 PM.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy Low Budget Shooter's Avatar
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    Okay, knife, I googled "Luckylabs ammo," and got nothing. Assuming you mean the Lucky Gunner Labs ammo tests, I'll proceed from there. Remember, the statement of yours with which I take issue is this:

    "I have seen numerous ballistic get tests fired out of short barrels, 3 inches and less. Standard loads and +P loads were fired from the same short barrel gun and velocity was recorded over a chrony and there was no difference in velocity."

    Here are the most pertinent data points from the Lucky Gunner .38 Special tests of loads fired from a 2" barrel gun:

    Hornady 110 gr FTX = 858 fps
    Hornady 110 gr FTX +P = 945 fps

    Winchester 130 gr Train & Defend = 803
    Winchester 130 gr Ranger +P = 860

    Hornady 125 gr XTP = 821
    Federal 125 gr Hi-Shok +P = 847
    Remington 125 gr Golden Saber +P = 877

    Hornady 158 gr XTP = 716
    Winchester 158 gr +P = 750
    Federal 158 gr +P = 794
    Remington 158 gr +P = 802

    Clearly the Lucky Gunner data is not proof of your assertion. So, I still say I do not believe that you have seen "numerous" tests where there was "no difference in velocity" between 38 Special and 38 Special +P. If you really have, please refer us to that data.
    I'm not sure where all the money is that I've "saved" by casting and reloading!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knifemaker View Post
    Lowbudget shooter, go to "Luckylabs ammo" and start with the 9mm ballistic tests and also view the tests for 38, 357, 40 S&W, and 45acp. You will see some standard loads there was a few feet per second over other +P loads with the same weight bullet. Also you will see that in a short barrel gun most of the +P loads were only 20 to 40 fps faster then a standard load. If that +P load produces a severe muzzle flash, why put up with it over a standard load that has less tendency to blind you while shooting in a dark room of your house at nighttime against a intruder.
    While there click on the photos of the five bullets fired in each test and see which were the better defensive loads. that old FBI lead SWC load is not as great as some seem to think it is. It was good 25 years ago, but more modern bullets have surpassed it for defense work.

    The test I am referring too are factory loads, not hand loads that can be adjusted for higher velocities in very hot +P loads.
    Hopefully I cans save a lot of time here. Whatever load you want to carry, you should carry. ANYBODY including myself tries to tell you to carry something different tell them, or me to bugger off.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    The NRA ran a test of loads vs. barrel length, about 30-40 yrears ago?, and the powders that gave the highest long barrel velocity also gave the highest short barrel velocity. there was nothing said about the amount of muzzle flash. I hate to think about the flash a full house 296 powder load in a 2" barrel would be. Might be fun to try, once.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    The 2" .38 revolver has a long history beyond the limits of the internet - out there in (Drum roll please!) the real world. Arguing on the web may be fun but there's a lot of real-world data on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of both the snub .38 revolver in general and specific types of ammo in that platform.

    I often carry a 642 for what I suspect are the same reasons that it's been carried by so many people for so many years. It's light, it's small, it's safe, it's reliable. It has a rounded profile that's comfortable to carry and easy to conceal. I don't consider it to be the ultimate fighting handgun, but I do consider it to be miles ahead of no gun at all and "good enough" for most of the situations I mind find myself in where I need a gun.

    I doubt there are many who would insist that the .38 snub is a perfect self-defense gun after the shooting begins, but the carrying benefits outweigh the shooting drawbacks for a lot of people.

    There's also plenty of evidence out there that expansion from a 2" .38 during serious social discussions is a very iffy thing, even with the best loads. Extensive real-world use has shown a very small number of loads to be at least close to reliable in expanding. Most if not all of those "proven" loads are +P.

    I'd think that unless a person is extremely recoil sensitive they would do well to chose the loads that have long evidence of high success rates. It's simply not true to say there's no difference in performance between the best loads and the lesser ones.

    Uncle R.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy
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    Regarding your older Charter..... I have one also- lightweight well timed and accurate. The fearsome Speer #8 38 spl loads were tested in a Charter snub. NO worries about your gun safely handling a few +Ps. And heavy loads of "slow" powders(assuming the powder is a burn rate suitable to achieve max safe pressure for the cartridge) may roar and flash but they give the highest velocities without regard to barrel length.
    Cast is an adjective, a noun and a verb. Cast works as both imperative and past tense without any additional letters or helping verbs.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
    Please tell me where he is blowing smoke? I looked it over, and every statement is true when comparing a 4 inch revolver to a 2 inch revolver. The 4 inch, or even 6 inch will give better results for the charge, no matter what the powder is. The OP asked for their recommendation, and they gave it, as much as it might upset you it IS their company, not yours. Anything they set as standards are their standards for the guns they manufacture.

    I have no problem with +P, but some people do. And when it comes down to it I have dropped cows instantly with a 22 short. The end result is all that matters to me. My GP100 gets stuffed with 38/44 loads because it is comfortable to shoot(4 inch), and it can handle it. Both my Bulldog, and Pitbull get downloaded ammo because for me the motion of the ocean is more important than the size of the boat. I believe in one shot stops, back to growing up shooting 22 rimfire, but that does not always happen so I prefer controllable follow up shots. And for me higher velocity for the same bullet weight means more recoil, and muzzle flash. But then I am not superman, I leave that stuff to the comic books.
    I apologize I misread the statement that followed saying there was no difference in velocity as being attributed to the Charter Arms guy.

    +P made more velocity in my gun. That was the basis of the blowing smoke comment. With Power Pistol I could see no more muzzle blast/flash with +P vs. max Standard load...just my subjective opinion firing both back to back.

    With my 3" revolver there is a difference in velocity that is significant to me.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    Lowbudget shooter, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that I have seen numerous ballistic gel tests, and SOME LOADS were the same between +P and standard loads. Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knifemaker View Post
    Lowbudget shooter, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that I have seen numerous ballistic gel tests, and SOME LOADS were the same between +P and standard loads. Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.
    I have seen the same discussion with bow hunters. There are two different camps, those that believe that only the fastest arrow, and bow should be used to hunt. Others that hunt successfully with a 45# recurve bow, nothing fancy.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    I can assure you 50 fps. can and often does make a difference in whether a bullet/boolit will expand from a snub, and 100 fps. really makes a difference. If you are shooting a non expanding bullet/boolit, or don't care if it expands, velocity surely doesn't matter. If I was intent on shooting slower loads, I would seriously consider a full wadcutter for the biggest meplat possible. If you want an expanding load from a snub, do some real testing, and find out where reliable expansion occurs. Just my opinion.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    Dubber123, expansion is only one part of a good defensive round, how deep it will penetrate into the body is also as important as the expansion. The 38 special, especially in snub nose revolvers is at best a marginal stopper due to it's low velocity in short barrel revolvers. One of the reasons law enforcement got away from that caliber and went to 9mm and 40 S&W with higher velocities for better stopping power with better penetration and expansion. The 38 special is nothing but a 9mm round that is low on velocity compared to the 9mm.
    The FBI requires 13-18 inches of penetration into 10% gel after going though several layers of denim fabric. A lot of 38 special loads from short barrel guns will not make that 13 inches. Now consider this, that gel test duplicates hitting a suspect in soft flesh such as the stomach area. If you hit him on the breast bone or rib, you will get even less penetration due to the hard bone being impacted.
    I have trained many civilians in firearms instruction as a certified LEO firearms instructor and competition match shooter for many years. Most of them have problems handling the recoil & muzzle blast of a stub nose revolver shooting loads hot enough to
    stop a person bent on harming them. If you are going to limit yourself to a defense round that is around 800-850 fps, go to a bigger caliber at that speed that will give you a better chance of surviving the gun fight.
    If a short barrel 38 special is all you got, practice enough to be sure of putting multiple rounds into a vital area to insure stopping the threat you are facing. If you can put two rounds into the chest and a third round into the head in under 3 seconds, two seconds is even better, then that 38 special will do you for a good defensive round.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by knifemaker View Post
    Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.
    That 50 or 100 fps. may well make the difference between expanding or not. It could be critical.
    Rule 303

  15. #35
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    It could be very critical. if you are on the margin line of velocity, sometimes you will get expansion and sometimes you will not. Go to the Luckygunner labs ammo test and see many rounds in numerous calibers that failed to expand due to the HP being clog with the denim clothing. click on the photos of the fired bullets and see a larger picture and you can see many rounds that failed to expand of the five rounds tested. Of the different calibers tested, Federal HST was a consistent good performer in the different calibers and a lot of law enforcement agencies have gone to the HST ammo due to better stopping performance. Winchester also has some new ammo out that is a great performer in 45ACP, even surpassing the HST ammo in that caliber.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy Low Budget Shooter's Avatar
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    knifemaker, your point about accuracy suffering with overly-powerful ammunition is a good one, which all should consider. But it is not proven true by the nonsense statements you keep making. This time you wrote:

    "no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart"

    In the 38 Special snubby, here's what you are talking about:

    158 grain SWC 725-750 fps = no expansion .36 caliber
    158 grain SWCHP +P 825-850 fps = expansion to .55-.65 caliber

    When the "FBI Load" came into common use by police in the 1970s-80s, many shootings demonstrated that the human body can indeed tell the difference between those two loads.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master



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    About the time I purchased my S&W 337PD AirLite PD 38+P Revolver at local sporting goods store went out of business. I got a great price on a bunch of various 38 self defense ammo. I never ran them over the chrono but the +P 129 grain Hydrshocks shoot like a target gun with perfect POI. In a 10.8 oz gun they are snappy. That guns has the best single action trigger pull I have ever shot. No one believes how well it shoots until they watch me shot groups with it.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Just for information purposes...

    You can look it up yourself, but the 158gr cast RNFP pushed by 4.6gr BE-86 (Max. suggested load) in a 6" barrel is on Alliants load data website running at 982fps and that is not a +P load.
    [ Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...6&bulletid=318 ]

    158gr LSWC is at 948fps, pushed by 5.4gr. Power Pistol ( Max. Suggested) in 6" bbl. & that is also not yet +P
    [Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...26&bulletid=30 ]

    And that same 158gr. LSWC at +P using the same Power Pistol powder at 6gr.( Max suggested) in a 6" bbl. is running at 1037fps.
    [ Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...27&bulletid=30 ]

    Now, understanding that there is gonna be some additional fps from a 6" bbl over a 2" snubbie, but I would reckon that it may drop it down to the mid 800s fps in the shorter 2" bbl for the first 2 & mid 900s fps for the last one. That is still a significant "punch" to someone if they are hit by it.

    I would imagine that if one went to using JHP rounds, using the same approximate loads ( researched & tested, of course), one might find they were gonna do a bit of damage at those speeds as well.

    I keep either 158 gr. JHP or LSWC or 148gr. LDEWC in my 38 snubbie & our .357 snubbie and am completely comfortable with those loads as personal defense rounds, if they were to be used. We practice with regular paper plate sized targets at 25yds & the smaller desert sized ones at 15 yds & less for our target sizes, using those snubbie wheelguns & are confident in hitting it that area pretty consistently. I like to think of it as, "shot placement" is just as important, if not more than what happens when the projectile hits a "soft target". If someone is coming at ya & if you have practiced at basically "head sized" targets without stress ( although we do practice "stress" type shooting as well.), you can be pretty confident that the bad guy is gonna take some hits & the closer he/she gets it is just gonna get easier to hit them where ya want to hit them.

    Now, what I am comfortable with for defense is not going to be the same as others, so like folks say, YMMV. But, like was mentioned just a couple/few posts before this one. The FBI carried those type of firearms & loads for a long time & had pretty good success with them. To top it all off, looking at those ballistics test mentioned earlier, the WCs & SWCs did a pretty good job of penetration & at speeds of mid 700 fps, but when the loads were bumped up to mid 800s, which is easily achievable with less that +P as mentioned above, (using the right powder choice), they mushroomed out nicely. {See the last few rows & pics at the bottom of the chart & compare the fps & the pics to the fps speeds listed in the above aforementioned loads.}:
    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

    Anyone can make the decision for themselves what they would be comfortable with using for "their" self defense use. I am just saying what "I" am comfortable with, were I to use those snubbies in 38spec for self defense purposes... Once again, like said, YMMV.

    Not trying to get into a debate. Just offering "my" opinion.

    G'Luck with your choices!
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  19. #39
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    FWIW:

    I own a ca undercover.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    It's nothing special, bought it used for the misses to carry along with a compact double stack 9mm. She didn't like the bulk/weight of the fully loaded bulldog or the 3" bbl'd l-comp 586. Last year I did some testing with that ca undercover. I wanted to get an idea of what a powder could do in the p+ range/load in the snubnosed ca undercover. I was more interested in the powders performance than the bullets so I used 10 different bullets and 5 different powders for the test. I took 1 powder/load and loaded up 5 rounds of each bullet and ran them over a chronograph. The end result was I got 50 rounds per load/powder chronographed. The bullets were all hp and 9 were cast and 1 was a swaged jacketed hp. The weight of the bullets ranged from 140gr to 160gr. The bullets used:
    h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
    Cramer hunter rnhp 158gr
    cramer #26 hpswc 150gr
    358439 hpswc 158gr
    358156 hpswcgc 150gr
    Mihec 640 fnhp 158gr
    hbwc turned backwards 148gr
    jacketed hp 150gr
    358431 hbswc that was hollow pointed 140gr
    raphine fnhb that was holllow pointed 150gr

    The powders used:
    bullseye
    be-86
    unique
    power pistol
    2400

    I shot/tested all 500 38spl p+ loads in 1 afternoon in the ca undercover pictured above. The end results were:
    bullseye averaged 801fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
    be-86 averaged 845fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
    unique averaged 833fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
    2400 averaged 882fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
    power pistol averaged 887fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string

    What load/bullet someone chooses is up to them.
    What I can say about the ca undercover is that every p+ load I've tried in it had move velocity than the powder/standard max load/same bullet combo.

  20. #40
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    OK, back to the OP:

    Where you start has a LOT to do with where you end up.
    While it is true that a longer barrel will allow the user to extract more velocity from a +P cartridge than a short barrel, there is STILL a gain to be had with +P even in a short barrel. So Charter Arms' advice that there is nothing (or very little) to be gained from +P in a short barrel is bad information. I think the two pages of responses prior to this post back this up.

    OK, enough about 2" barrels and +P performance.

    Moving onto the gun itself - I agree with Outpost75. A Charter Arms undercover is a serviceable gun but it is basically disposable. That is NOT saying the gun is weak! (personally I think the CA revolvers are quite strong). It is saying that spending a lot of money to correct one that has become loose is probably not a good use of funds.
    So practice with standard pressure loads and carry +P. If the gun ever becomes loose, consider it a Bic lighter that has run out of fuel and replace it.

    Standard Pressure 38 Special vs +P 38 Special:
    There is an incredible amount of hype and misinformation concerning the differences between Standard Pressure and +P.
    The SAAMI specifications for standard pressure 38 Special loads set the max pressure limit at 17,000 psi.
    The SAAMI specifications for +P 38 Special loads set the max pressure limit at 20,000 psi.

    That's only a difference of 3000psi ! That's IT folks!
    +P is a higher pressure load but we're not talking huge margins here. The 9mm Luger and .357 mag max pressures are 35,000psi !

    There's no doubt that long term use of +P ammunition will expose the gun to additional stress and potentially accelerated wear. However, keep everything in perspective. I don't remember the name, it may have been Jeff Cooper?, but there was a test involving a lightweight alloy framed S&W J-frame and +P ammunition. 1000 rounds of +P were fired through the little alloy framed gun with no problems. The gun was tight and functioned normally at the end of the test. I'm not suggesting someone duplicate that test but the point is the guns are tougher than many believe.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check