38 Special +P

[dddddmorgan]

I'm sure the topic of 38 Special +P in a hand cannon for self defense has been discussed ad nauseam, I thought I would share a recent correspondence.

I've got a vintage Charter Arms for carrying purposes and I was concerned that it wasn't specifically marked for +P loads.

My letter (email) to Charter Arms:

Dear Friends,

I have had one of your Undercover revolvers for at least 25 years and it wasn't new when I got it, and I'm wondering if it is safe for the occasional round of +P loads?

The serial number is 5****1.

Thanks,

Dan



Their response:

Please see below regarding +P Ammunition:
1. +P loads require at least a 4" barrel to properly burn the additional powder transforming the
bullet to higher velocity.
2. +P loads in a 2" barrel revolver result in more muzzle flash.
3. +P loads will result in more recoil, making it harder for the shooter to come back on target.
4. +P loads cost more.
5. While not recommended, the weapon is able to handle the pressure of +P Ammunition.
We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the
least expensive, when you load for protection use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain
with which you practice.

[str8wal]

If a 4" barrel is required for a 38+P, wonder what they would say about a 357 magnum snubby.

[oscarflytyer]

having one of these, and shooting it with factory grips at <+P loads - if you want to shoot it at +P, knock your socks off and have the ice bag ready! Everyday - HELL NO! MAYBE a cylinder full for side walk loads, but prob not... A 158 grn SWC at ~750 outta this thing is plenty!

[Walkingwolf]

If a 4" barrel is required for a 38+P, wonder what they would say about a 357 magnum snubby.

That the market for a 357 magnum snubby makes it a smart move to sell them. Whether they are practical, or not, this goes for any company that sells products to the public. Think of it like the market for extra large condoms, normal size condoms do their job for 99.9% of the users, but their is a market for selling oversize ones. Not implying their is any connection between the two, but...

[dubber123]

Horse hockey as Colonel Potter would say. If you are shooting an expanding bullet/boolit, velocity matters. You got one persons personal opinion at Charter, and that's about it in my opinion.

[Walkingwolf]

Horse hockey as Colonel Potter would say. If you are shooting an expanding bullet/boolit, velocity matters. You got one persons personal opinion at Charter, and that's about it in my opinion.

And your opinion is one of the reasons that CA sells 357 magnum snubs. For people like me they sell non magnum revolvers also. No horse was injured in this post.

[knifemaker]

DUBBER123, Charter Arms may have given the right information. I have seen numerous ballistic get tests fired out of short barrels, 3 inches and less. Standard loads and +P loads were fired from the same short barrel gun and velocity was recorded over a chony and there was no difference in velocity. In fact some loads showed a few feet per second faster for the standard load over the +P load. In 4 inch barrels or longer, the +P loads did show a good increase in velocity over the standard loads.
If you do not accept this, run your standard loads and +P loads from your short barrel gun over a chony and see what the velocity is between the two. You may be surprised what you find in terms of velocity from snub nose guns. It has to do with the type of powder used by the maker of the +P loads. For a short barrel it requires a very fast burn rate to get higher velocity in such a short barrel and if you are getting a severe muzzle flash, part of the powder is burning after leaving the barrel and can not effect the velocity.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Okay, knife, here's a small sample of the huge volume of chrony test data the shooters of this forum can provide to disprove what you just wrote. (This was one of my own tests, run by me, myself.)

158 gr lead bullet shot from Charter Arms Police Undercover 1 7/8" barrel
12-shot strings from same gun in same session
Everything was the same except the powder charge
Powder charges were the max current Alliant 38 Special and 38 Special +P

651 fps - 38 Special - 3.5 gr Bullseye
707 fps - 38 Special +P - 3.9 gr Bullseye

650 fps - 38 Special - 4.7 gr Unique
780 fps - 38 Special + P - 5.2 gr Unique

I do not believe you have seen "numerous" short-barrel chrony tests in which there was no difference in velocity between standard and +P loads. If you really have, please provide links to documentation.

LBS

[M-Tecs]

Buffalo Bore uses actual chrono results from various guns for actual velocities. I have only tested a couple of their loads but their and my data basically matched. The S&W 60 results give you a good reference for comparison.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=146

[Walkingwolf]

Okay, knife, here's a small sample of the huge volume of chrony test data the shooters of this forum can provide to disprove what the C.A. person told you. (This was one of my own tests, run by me, myself.)

158 gr lead bullet shot from Charter Arms Police Undercover 1 7/8" barrel
12-shot strings from same gun in same session
Everything was the same except the powder charge
Powder charges were the max current Alliant 38 Special and 38 Special +P

651 fps - 38 Special - 3.5 gr Bullseye
707 fps - 38 Special +P - 3.9 gr Bullseye

650 fps - 38 Special - 4.7 gr Unique
780 fps - 38 Special + P - 5.2 gr Unique

I do not believe you have seen "numerous" short-barrel chrony tests in which there was no difference in velocity between standard and +P loads. If you really have, please provide links to documentation.

LBS

It is very seldom that same loads, in the same gun will have EXACTLY the same velocity, there will always be a variance. Depending on the person the extra muzzle blast, and recoil may not make that difference worth it. I buy magnum condoms so of course I want as much recoil, and muzzle blast as I can get.

The most important factor in any shooting is placing the bullet where it supposed to go, I believe they call that shot placement. Or as the girls would say, "It's not the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean."

[dddddmorgan]

Whoo-Whee! I got it going, didn't I?

Well, IMHO at the heart of the matter is pressure more than velocity. I know from experience over the years the correlation of velocity and pressure in relationship to barrel length, but quite honestly it is always in my head about "regular" revolvers and pistols with 4" barrels and such. And then of course this discussion with rifle barrels and so forth is the same.

What got me thinking differently after receiving the correspondence was the basic lack of a barrel if you will on the snubby revolvers. There is simply no time to develop pressure in these pipsqueak handguns. Am I right?

Certainly you will gain velocity with more powder but I would love to see results of a test with a strain gauge glued to a snubby revolver.

Quick question: Is it speed alone or speed and pressure that merit a +P rating for ammo?

[KenH]

Quick question: Is it speed alone or speed and pressure that merit a +P rating for ammo?

Pressure

[30calflash]

Nice test LBS, not a lot out there for 2" results.

My EDC is a S&W 442, Win /Rem/Fed 158 gr SWCHP +P's, I run a cylinder full thru it sparingly, std 38 spec for practice. Less wear and tear, more enjoyable and with similar weight bullets the POI is good for what it's planned for.

I've a CA 38 that will get the workout soon. If A/M grips are available they may help in the recoil dept.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3"....Just ran it through my chono with factory +P and my reloads at standard and +P levels. +P level loads with Power Pistol produced 90-100 fps more velocity than max. standard loads with 130gr. boolits. I noticed no appreciable increase in muzzle flash and recoil was very manageable. Whether or not a 10%+ increase in velocity matters is arguable....but the fact that +P increases velocity is not.

The guy at Charter Arms was blowing smoke "where the sun don't shine".

[Outpost75]

I don't know how durable the CA revolvers are when shot alot with +P loads. Most gunsmiths I know DO NOT work on them because a used CA isn't worth much in the resale market and it is poor economy to put more time and effort into an inexpensive gun than it is worth.

If you do not plan to shoot the gun alot, and don't intend to run a steady diet of +P in it, it may work for you. My advice is to use standard pressure ammo for practice and +P only for carry, firing off a cylinder full of that once a month for function checks when replacing the carry ammo with fresh, but no more.

Once the gun shoots loose you should consider it "disposable" unless CA us willing to fix it free.

If you REALLY like the gun, then you should get TWO. One for practice, one for carry. Have them both gunsmith inspected and keep a careful log of rounds fired, any malfunctions, etc. to compile a history so that you can have confidence from experience with the practice gun how long a CA will last in casual use. I cannot speak to the quality of current product, but from limited testing of several back in the 1980s, if you get 2000 rounds of standard pressure and 100 rounds of +P out of it with no malfunctions and no repairs requiring return to the factory, I would declare Victory.

[Walkingwolf]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3"....Just ran it through the my chono with factory +P and my reloads at standard and +P levels. +P level loads with Power Pistol produced 90-100 fps more velocity than max. standard loads with 130gr. boolits. I noticed no appreciable increase in muzzle flash and recoil was very manageable. Whether or not a 10%+ increase in velocity matters is arguable....but the fact that +P increases velocity is not.

The guy at Charter Arms was blowing smoke "where the sun don't shine".

Please tell me where he is blowing smoke? I looked it over, and every statement is true when comparing a 4 inch revolver to a 2 inch revolver. The 4 inch, or even 6 inch will give better results for the charge, no matter what the powder is. The OP asked for their recommendation, and they gave it, as much as it might upset you it IS their company, not yours. Anything they set as standards are their standards for the guns they manufacture.

I have no problem with +P, but some people do. And when it comes down to it I have dropped cows instantly with a 22 short. The end result is all that matters to me. My GP100 gets stuffed with 38/44 loads because it is comfortable to shoot(4 inch), and it can handle it. Both my Bulldog, and Pitbull get downloaded ammo because for me the motion of the ocean is more important than the size of the boat. I believe in one shot stops, back to growing up shooting 22 rimfire, but that does not always happen so I prefer controllable follow up shots. And for me higher velocity for the same bullet weight means more recoil, and muzzle flash. But then I am not superman, I leave that stuff to the comic books.

[trapper9260]

I don't know how durable the CA revolvers are when shot alot with +P loads. Most gunsmiths I know DO NOT work on them because a used CA isn't worth much in the resale market and it is poor economy to put more time and effort into an inexpensive gun than it is worth.

If you do not plan to shoot the gun alot, and don't intend to run a steady diet of +P in it, it may work for you. My advice is to use standard pressure ammo for practice and +P only for carry, firing off a cylinder full of that once a month for function checks when replacing the carry ammo with fresh, but no more.

Once the gun shoots loose you should consider it "disposable" unless CA us willing to fix it free.

If you REALLY like the gun, then you should get TWO. One for practice, one for carry. Have them both gunsmith inspected and keep a careful log of rounds fired, any malfunctions, etc. to compile a history so that you can have confidence from experience with the practice gun how long a CA will last in casual use. I cannot speak to the quality of current product, but from limited testing of several back in the 1980s, if you get 2000 rounds of standard pressure and 100 rounds of +P out of it with no malfunctions and no repairs requiring return to the factory, I would declare Victory.

Sound like a gun to stay away from. For how this is wrote up,My main wheel guns are Ruger and so far no problems.I get a 357 mag then a 38spl or 38+ P .That way I have more use and rounds to use in it. But that is just me. I had talk to one guy some time back he has a 38spl and it had a short barrel and was looking to get one with a longer barrel. I said why not get a 357mag with the longer barrel and he said about can you shoot a 38 spl in it I told him yes and why and then he said he will looking into a 357 after with a longer barrel.

[Texas by God]

My elderly father remarked after shooting 6 .357 158grhp from his S&W m66 snub- "that's stupid- give me back my .38 Special shells!" I agree. Bullet placement, bullet placement, and oh yeah- bullet placement.

[P Flados]

The +P designation goes with a higher allowed pressure. Higher allowed pressures makes for higher velocities when everything else is the same.

If you pick a common bullet weight and then sample all available commercial +P ammo, you will probably find some brands do a lot better in a snubby than others. This is all based on the powder selection by the maker and how "hot" the maker was willing to go.

If you repeat with above in the same bullet weight with standard ammo, you will again get a spread.

Unless the sample sizes are just too small, I have no doubt that the fastest results for standard ammo would overlap the range for +P. I also have no doubt that the best +P will be faster than the best standard.

If you load your own and you are talking same powder and same bullet, the +P load will be faster every time.

If you have a lot of powder types on your shelf, you may find that in your gun with your bullet, a different powder does best at +P vs. standard pressures. This will be most likely becasue one load is just closer to (or over) the max allowed. However, it is actually possible that one is just a better "optimum burn rate" at one pressure limit as compared to the other.

For these types of discussions, the Balistics by the inch web site is very informative.

For Buffalo bore 158s in a 2",

- The standard ammo was under 800 fps for the loose cylinder gap test
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/buffalobore2.html

- The +P ammo was over 950 fps for the loose cylinder gap test
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/buffalobore3.html

Now the extra 150 fps for BB ammo may or may not make a difference. That is your call.

Saying things that paint +P as "no better" was probably more a reflection on the indivduals position as to the value of extra speed vs. the overall cost.

[Walkingwolf]

Dead is dead, whether from a 22, or 50bmg. Same for a stop, a threat that stops without the gun even being fired is still a stop. The rep was right, as long as standard ammo is used properly it will have the same outcome as +P. For me that is all that matters, I do not carry, or load to brag.