30-40 Leverevolution Quickload?

[RPRNY]

In May of 2015, I undertook very amateur testing of Leverevolution Powder in the 30-40 cartridge as follows. I submitted this amateur-hour info to Hodgdon and asked that they undertake a more rigorous and scientific approach to see if indeed LVR would deliver increased velocity at safe pressures for the Krag-Joergensen rifle. I have never heard back from Hogdon and there is still no data for LVR and the 30-40.

So, I was wondering if anyone with Quickload could run a simulation at two levels above what I tested. Does that work?

Here is the data that I generated testing in May of 2015 @ 65F and 4,800 ft. altitude.

Ok, testing has been done. There is insufficient rigour and volume to establish anything concrete, but there is enough to indicate strong potential.

All testing completed with Ruger No. 3 22" barrel R-P Brass and Winchester Large Rifle Primers

Factory Remington 180 Core-Lokt (control)

20 rounds. Avg Velocity = 2296 fps AVG Case Head Expansion = 0.005" (SD 38 fps)

Leverevolution. 180 grs Speer HCSP

19 x 39 grs LVR: Avg Velocity = 2276 fps Avg Case Head Expansion = 0.0038" (SD 42 fps)

20 x 41grs: Avg Velocity = 2356 fps Avg Case Head Expansion =0.0035" (SD 31 fps)
(Max Load for 308 ME with LVR is 41.4grs. 308 ME holds 6 grs less H20 than Remington 30-40)

20x 43 grs LVR: Avg Velocity = 2368 fps Avg Case Head Expansion = 0.0036" *(High SD 68 fps. Something odd?)

18x 44.1 grs LVR: Avg Velocity = 2421 fps Avg Case Head Expansion = .0045 (SD 29 fps)



The highest velocity published load for 180 grs bullet by Hodgdon is 2445 fps with IMR 4350 (46 grs C) through 24" test barrel at 38,700 CUP.

So, my conclusion is that Leverevolution holds potential for delivering 100 + fps more than highest current published loads in Krag Jorgenson rifles at safe pressures and that Hornady should test LVR for the Krag and see whether my amateur results and methods pan out or not. I will write to Hornady accordingly and we shall see.

As noted above, my letter must have gone into the circular file. No response, no new data from Hodgdon.

So, were someone willing, I would love to see the figures generated for the following:

R-P brass, WLR primer, 180 grs Speer HCSP (for consistency: 65F, 4,800 ft altitude) at:

43 grs Leverevolution

44 grs Leverevolution

45 grs Leverevolution

and 46 grs

The Ruger No. 3 is ever so robust, so I am more confident testing than I would be with a Krag receiver, but case head expansion does not strike me as the most fool proof way to ensure safety and I have no wish to be in the running for the Darwin Awards... So some indication whether progressing beyond 44 grs would be dangerous would be most welcome.

[lar45]

I would love to help with Quickload, but it doesn't have Lvr powder listed. My version is 3.8

[RPRNY]

Thanks very much for checking in any event.

[Larry Gibson]

I doubt you'll find an accurate QL application for LeveRevolution powder as its pressure does not behave like "normal" powders do.

[RPRNY]

Larry,

You did quite a bit of work with Lever in the 30-30 and I don't recall you ever offering any particularly dangerous advice... So, holding you harmless for any action that I might ever take, do you have a view on continuing testing in the Ruger No. 3 beyond 44 grs and using case head expansion as a measure of advancing pressure? Or, perhaps a far better solution, ideas on getting Hodgdon to do some data on LVR in the 30-40?

[Larry Gibson]

RPRNY

The case head expansion method works fine against a known sample. In your 30-40 you are using factory Remington which is fine and getting.005" expansion at the expansion ring.

However, for the test measurement to be valid, the test cases then used must be exactly the very same lot of cases and then only new and unfired. Using cases of another lot of the same make, of another manufacture or that have been already fired can, and most often does, give different measurements not consistent or comparable to the original factory load measurements.

The proper method is to use 3 boxes (60 rounds) of the same lot of factory ammunition. Shoot 10 shots and measure all of them at the expansion ring getting an average expansion.

Pull the remaining bullets, dump the powder and carefully deprime then NS only, do not full length size.

Put your test loads in those 50 cases. That can give you five 10 shot strings or seven 7 shot test strings or increments of powder charge to "work up" the load with. I have found that most often sufficient. Then, after testing each increment test, average the expansion at the expansion ring and average. When an average expansion of a test string equals the expansion of the factory load the max pressures are comparable. The time/pressure (trace) may not be the same though because of different burning rates or bullet weights but the max pressure generated will be very close. However, with LeveRevolution if you match the expansion at the expansion ring to that of the factory expansion the velocity will be appreciably higher.

Basically your doing the same as is done with the C.U.P. method of chamber pressure measurement. The difference is instead of converting to pressure the compression of a copper "pellet" against a tarage table you are comparing the expansion of the case brass against a know standard (the factory expansion).

Hodgdon mayor may not test the LeveRevolution, as suggested, in the 30-40 as their testing facility is scheduled to meet their own production requirements. Fitting such other tests such as yours in would seriously disrupt their own schedule and may be cost prohibitive.

I could easily test it though but it requires the use of the rifle and the reloading dies as I do not have a 30-40 nor dies. The strain gauge will be permanently attached or if removed leaves a mark as the bluing is removed. The gauge attachment can many times be made under the fore end though so it is not seen. Is it possible you could visit down here?

[SULTAN]

A Ruger No. 1/3 is very different than a Krag. A No. 1/3 can be hotrodded to the point where the cases melt, not so a single heat treated brittle Krag.

Since Krags in fine shape are worth a lot, I don't see any point in shooting one with anything but heavy case boolits at no more than 1800 fps. Certainly no faster than a factory load w/the same weight bullet.

No 1s were/are chambered for lots of go fast 30 caliber rounds. The only 30 caliber No.3 was the 30-40. You can load it hot and enjoy getting smacked around.

If you have lots of Leverevolution and want to use it in a Krag, make sure your Chronograph is set up and stop when you equal factory ammo.

In a No. 3, have at it until you're tired of the pain or you start getting classic pressure signs.

[RPRNY]

Sultan,

You are right of course, but the whole point is to see whether LVR will deliver higher velocities at safe pressures in the Krag rifle. I can do 175 grs at 2650 in the Ruger No. 3, but what I was trying to find out is whether LVR can deliver 180 grs at 2500 safely in the Krag.

Larry, thank you very much for your kind offer. I think when the weather warms up, I will proceed again with testing in the Ruger and case head expansion. Perhaps Hogdon will get around to the 30-40 one day.

Thanks again.

[earlmck]

LVR is my best powder for velocity with good accuracy in the 30/30 and the 30 Remington, where it seems almost miraculous at being able to give nearly 200 fps over any other powder with the 175 grain bullet. But as soon as I use a cartridge with a different balance of case capacity/bore diameter the LVR is no longer miraculous. In your 30/30 Krag cartridge with enough case capacity that 4350 is a top powder, I am thinking you have a whole different balance and you are not going to beat those 4350 velocities at equal pressure.

It certainly looks like LVR is a viable powder for 30/40 Krag but it may not give you the "miracle" you are wanting. And no, QL has not bothered to give us an update to cover a whole raft of ball powders that have come available in the last five years or so...

[RPRNY]

Thanks. The case volume balance thing is a different parameter that I have not considered.The 30-40 case is not enormously bigger than the 30-30 case but you may be into soemthing. I have not tested IMR 4350 in the Ruger, so getting a read on the top load 46grs is an important step to take. If LVR can deliver 180 at 2500, my Krag is in the running for a 2018 elk hunt. So, I shall continue to experiment when the weather picks up and advise.

[curioushooter]

My efforts with 30-40 in US Krag have led me to conclude it is pointless to try and squeeze more performance out of it. As it is, is basically has an edge on 30-30, which is fine for deer at moderate range.

The chief virtue as I see it with the 30-40 is its excellence as a cast bullet platform. Low pressure, LOOONG NECK (its key advantage over ought-six), and great versatility in weights. There are book loads that get a 150 grainer going over 2500 FPS. Heavier loads up to 220 grains going to 2000 FPS.

My favorite US Krag for hunting has a nifty handling 19" barrel and shoots 150 grain cast or jacketed bullet accurately at 2500 FPS (I prefer the Speer Hot Cor Flat Point for the 30-30 or the RCBS 30-150-FNGC.

I also use the same bullets in my Mossberg 464 with a 20" barrel where 38.5 grains of LeveRevolution will approach this performance envelope. It makes it easy for me since I get the same external ballistics.

I still prefer the Krag Magazine over any other. It has the advantage of a tube magazine with a loading gate in that you can top it off with a round chambered---and can't lose the thing. And it has the advantage of not messing with barrel harmonics or requiring flat point bullets. And it is by far the easiest magazine to use with heavy gloved hands.

[6.5 CM]

When dealing with a powder for which loads are not published ----- Get an up date to date burn rate chart, find your powder and those that are closest to it for which there is published data. Some simple interpolation will give you a starting point.

106 Hodgdon CFE 223
107 Hodgdon LEVEREVOLUTION
108 Hodgdon H380

Max load w/a 150 gr Nosler is 44 gr of H380 in a 30-40

You'll note the OP's loads in a No. 3 were in this ballpark.

46 gr H380 w/a 220 in a 7.62x54

40.4 of CFE 223 w/a 180 in 303 Brit.

IMO LR is a poor choice for cast as long as 4198 and 5744 are made.

IF I had to try it, I'd start with a 180 cast bore rider, sized to 2 thou over bore.

Set up the Chronograph, load up 10 cases, starting @35 gr in 1 gr increments.

Once I hit 1600 fps with no pressure issues I'd call it done.

The RULE is: "BE CONSERVATIVE!"