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Thread: Horrible leading...need input

  1. #1
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    Horrible leading...need input

    Third outing shooting cast in 1911, third time cleaning lead out. Thank goodness for copper chore boys

    I want to go through my entire setup and procedure front to back, so if someone sees what I'm doing wrong, you can clue me in.

    I am ladle casting into a 5 cavity aluminum mold from Accurate. The mold casts 200gr SWC. They drop at .455 (I ordered oversized intentionally and I size down). The boolits are fairly soft, cast of ebay sourced WW ingots.

    After casting, I size them in a Lee push through sizer. I do this unlubed and I have never had an issue with leading in the sizer. The sizer was originally a Lee .452 sizer, which I opened up to .4528 at the widest dimension using a dowel rod and sand paper. At the base and front driving band, the boolits measure .4528 in the narrowest dimension and slightly above .453 at the widest dimension after sizing. For reference, the barrel of my 1911 slugs at .4515 which makes for a .0013 to .0015 interference fit.

    These were tumbled lubed with 45 45 10 purchased from White Label Lubes. I used a single coat. The 45 45 10 is in a wal mart ketchup squeeze bottle. I place this bottle in a sink of hot water to get it flowing better. While the lube is warming, I place all boolits in a plastic container and I put a heat gun on them until they are just barely too hot to touch. Then I sparingly apply 45 45 10 (roughly 15 drops if you want to count it that way and IIRC), put the lid on, and tumble for about a minute or two. I did about 100 boolits this way. After lubing, boolits come out looking like this:



    If they look a bit rough, they are. Most of the scratches were sustained when being dropped from the mold or banging into each other while tumble lubing.

    I let these dry overnight. Because I don't have a proper workshop, I simply set them outside to dry overnight. SWMBO will not tolerate the funky smell in the basement The temperature was relatively cold that night (around 35F).

    I loaded them on my Hornady LnL AP progressive press. Utilized mixed range brass. Station 1 is a Lee sizing die for 45 ACP (the Lee has a wider chamfer at the mouth and works better in a progressive). Station 2 was powder charging. It uses a Hornady LnL measure and a .452-.454 powder through expander insert. I was very generous with the expansion because I've had issues with boolits being swaged down during seating before. The powder charge was Hodgdon's starting charge of Titegroup for 200gr LSWC boolits (4.8gr). Station 3 was empty (putting a bullet feeder here soon). Station 4 is a Hornady seater die configured with SWC seating stem. The die was doing no crimping at all, seating only. Station 5 was a Lee FCD backed out almost all the way...the FCD can swage boolits down, so I set it to size the cartridge only partially, and not down to the boolit base. Basically I used just enough FCD to get the rounds to chamber (swaged nose down some, not base).

    I made three dummy cartridges first. One of them had a boolit seated without having been run through the partial FCD stage. The other two had a boolit seated and were run through the partial FCD stage. I pulled all three boolits and measured the base. Bases still measured .4528 in all cases.

    I made and fired 50 rounds. Before cleaning, this was the condition of my barrel:



    It actually didn't turn out to be as bad as it looks in the first pic. This is what I had after a patch and some Hoppes:



    Still pretty bad, but not as apocalyptic as it seemed at first. Nevertheless, this level of leading is even worse than when I was shooting undersized boolits (.451 through a .4515 barrel was not this bad; I used LLA lube on those, and too much. They were sticky until the moment I fired them).

    The leading was consistent down the length of the entire barrel. It was not prevalent near the chamber or the muzzle, it was evenly distributed.

    Where do I go from here to correct this? I really only have vague ideas. I have proper boolit size for my barrel and my bases aren't being swaged down. There are three possibilities I am considering.

    1) Titegroup is a very fast burner and has a spikey pressure curve; I suppose it's possible it spikes pressure too high for the lube or the alloy. If this is the case, I have some Hodgdon Universal I can try.

    2) The alloy is clearly quite soft. The boolits get dinged and scratched readily just dropping them from molds and tumble lubing them. I don't have a hardness tester, but I suspect they are not above 10 BHN. I *can* scratch them with a fingernail, just barely and not deeply, but you can see and feel the scratch. I did not really consider this a problem as 45 ACP is suited to soft boolits and unsuited to hard ones anyway.

    3) Lube. They say less is more with tumble lube. Maybe they're wrong. Shooting them today, there was smoke so it wasn't as if the lube somehow fell off or something weird like that. I don't recall the smoke being higher or lower volume compared to what I normally see, but I didn't really pay attention to that detail either. In any case, maybe one coat was not enough, though if that were the case, I would kind of expect to have no / less leading near the chamber and heavier leading at the muzzle. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

    FWIW, the accuracy remained surprisingly acceptable until about the last five rounds, but even then I was still holding 4 or 5 inches at 15 yards in poor weather and visibility.

  2. #2
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    The easiest thing to try is doubling the lla. I am a trust but verify sort at heart and wonder if your alloy is really ww or perhaps softer. How many rounds of jacketed has the barrel seen? Is it new enough to perhaps be rough? Lack of lube #1, alloy #2 bbl condition #3 is how I rate them. At worst you may need to buy some lube and pan lube.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Doesn't sound like COWW, could be SOWW. Much softer - I can tumble PC and NO dings or dents using COWW. Try tumble PC ( it is easy and inexpensive). I had problems with BLL, soft alloy and lube got 'blown' off (40SW) and leaded all the way badly. If they have any Sb in them, try heat treating some to see if that helps. Recluse (45/45/10) is good, I used 2 coats on 40W. 45 is much lower pressure. I don't buy off evilbay.
    Whatever!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Doesn't sound like COWW, could be SOWW. Much softer - I can tumble PC and NO dings or dents using COWW. Try tumble PC ( it is easy and inexpensive). I had problems with BLL, soft alloy and lube got 'blown' off (40SW) and leaded all the way badly. If they have any Sb in them, try heat treating some to see if that helps. Recluse (45/45/10) is good, I used 2 coats on 40W. 45 is much lower pressure. I don't buy off evilbay.
    I don't want to PC until I master cast boolits with traditional lube first. Kind of like how a new shooter, you teach them iron sights before moving on to scopes and red dot sights.

    SOWW is almost pure lead, so maybe the boolits are too soft. Fortunately, I have a box of 18 BHN commercial hard cast boolits in various calibers, not enough to make a production run with in any one caliber. I could drop them in the melt and harden up the alloy, wouldn't have to go paying $$$ for foundry tin or antimony.

    Edit: Is it possible I accidentally softened the alloy by getting it too hot? Is it not possible to have the Tin in it come out of solution under too much heat?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    The easiest thing to try is doubling the lla. I am a trust but verify sort at heart and wonder if your alloy is really ww or perhaps softer. How many rounds of jacketed has the barrel seen? Is it new enough to perhaps be rough? Lack of lube #1, alloy #2 bbl condition #3 is how I rate them. At worst you may need to buy some lube and pan lube.
    This barrel has seen about 5000 rounds total. I would say about 1000 are jacketed, shouldn't have any new roughness to it I'd think. The rest of the ammo it's seen has been mouse fart loads using commercial hard cast boolits.

    I can always pile on more lube, but as popper suggests, if the boolits are soft enough to scratch with your fingernail, maybe that's a problem too.

  6. #6
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    Soft swaged Hornady or Speer bullets should shoot fine over 4.8 gr Titegroup w/o leading like that so I doubt its the alloy. My first suspicion would be the lube. I suggest using a Q-tip to put another coat of LLA or the 45/45/10 on the drive bands and in the lube groove. Then let it thoroughly dry. If not dry the lube is probably being wiped off during seating the bullet. Do 10 like that and test.
    Larry Gibson

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  7. #7
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    How easy does that ebay lead hold up under a finger nail as opposed to the commercial stuff?

  8. #8
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    It's the ebay lead. Not what you ordered. I bet it's pure lead.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Soft swaged Hornady or Speer bullets should shoot fine over 4.8 gr Titegroup w/o leading like that so I doubt its the alloy. My first suspicion would be the lube. I suggest using a Q-tip to put another coat of LLA or the 45/45/10 on the drive bands and in the lube groove. Then let it thoroughly dry. If not dry the lube is probably being wiped off during seating the bullet. Do 10 like that and test.
    This sounds like a good excuse to get a star sizer

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBore45 View Post
    It's the ebay lead. Not what you ordered. I bet it's pure lead.
    Question. Even if it is pure lead, the soft swaged boolits should work according to Larry Gibson. So why would questionable scambay lead cause an issue?

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Went2kck's Avatar
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    try going a bit faster with them boolits cured a problem i had. I no longer start at the slowest or lowest powder charge. I start in the mid range and go from their.

  12. #12
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    You may want to try plain old Johnson's Paste Wax for a tumble lube and see how it works for you. I use it w/ cast boolits for my 30-06 A.I. when I fireform loads, and in my 9mm at times. Of course I prefer Carnauba red for everything....
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue32 View Post
    How easy does that ebay lead hold up under a finger nail as opposed to the commercial stuff?
    I can scratch the ebay lead with my thumbnail.

  14. #14
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    I'm casting the same boolit from an Accurate mold just like you, 1-1 Pb-WW, lubed with 45-45-10, and I've never got leading anywhere near as bad as you're getting. I might get slight leading after 100 rounds or so. I've since switched to NRA Beeswax-Alox. Now I can shoot 100's of rounds and not a trace of leading. Loading with 4.0 Be, all on a single stage press. You're expanding your cases enough to remove the swaging while seating issue, so we can rule that out. Sounds like a lead alloy problem, or the 45-45-10 is not curing at 35*. When I tumble lub, I set the tray of bullets near the coal stove in the winter time, or out in the sun on a hot summer day, to dry. I always did 2 coats too.

  15. #15
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    Leading front to back or start to end of barrel is a lube issue. In 45 I wouldn't be concernedwith alloy unless it was linotype and tjdn my concern would be that I'm wasting it. I'd try different lubes. In all honesty if you have straight alox or lla, I would dip lube those bullets and load them and see if your leading goes away. If it doesn't then im full of it and I'd like to know. If it does work i would stop using 454510 and try standard tumble lube. Your picture is hard to see because it seems dark to me. So it's hard to say if you have a coating or not.

  16. #16
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    Your first pic shows lubed boolits and I am looking and I am like well, WHERE is the lube? I see an empty lube groove. That boolit, sized as you stated, with any decent soft lube filling the lube groove should be a good performer. I think your lube is inadequate and looks like the barrel thinks the same thing.

    I would suggest if the alloy is hard enough that you can just barely scratch it with a thumbnail, it is prefect for a 1911. If you can dig your thumbnail into it, too soft. I would suggest you get one of the RCBS Lube A Matic II machines and some of Randy Rat's Tac1 and get away from the TL.

    OR you could ask for samples here, same mold, 50/50+2%, send me a couple hundred and I would run them through my LAM size to .452" with TAC1 lube in the groove and you try them. Or cast them from 50/50+2% from your mold and send them. Either way you would get enough samples to try my suggested method and see if it works for you.

    You also don't mention the throat in the barrel, or if there isn't any freebore, lots of times just properly throating the barrel make a WORLD of difference because the boolit is not being jammed into the rifling as soon as it starts pulling crimp.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  17. #17
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    There is some free bore. Not a great deal but it's there.

  18. #18
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    I'm going to relube with 45 45 10 and go heavier this time, and let drying happen in the utility closet.

    If I get a lube sizer I'm gonna buy once cry once and get a star.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBore45 View Post
    It's the ebay lead. Not what you ordered. I bet it's pure lead.
    Exactly what I thought when I read the source. I'd try water dropping a few and let them set a day or two and then see if they go through the sizer as easy as the previously sized ones that are leading the barrel. coww lead in my experience will harden overnight when water dropped. You also have the option of pb gas checks.

  20. #20
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    Seems to me too soft and too dry. Harden the alloy and get some more lube on 'em.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check