Custom wads for Lee Key Drive Slugs

[Hogtamer]

I love this place! Tong, did you try that in a rifled gun? I bet the 7/8 will do better too.

[BigMrTong]

No i’m In the UK and we don’t have many rifled shotguns. They are classed as a full rifle here, and not a shotgun.

They work the best for me in cylinder bore guns. I tried an improved cylinder, the group opened up quite a lot.

I have heard the 7/8 is better and I can try a longer set of fins using the same fins. I’ll get one on order.

[Hogtamer]

A couple other questions...how does the material you are using hold up at firing and do the wads stay with the slug to the target? Again, really nice work.

[longbow]

Now that is pretty slick! Good thinking and good work!

What plastic are you using?

What diameter is the tail wad?

The innovation around here is amazing!

[Markopolo]

I am TOTALLY subscribed to this thread of thinkers and tinker's... I love to see good collaboration!!!

[BigMrTong]

A couple other questions...how does the material you are using hold up at firing and do the wads stay with the slug to the target? Again, really nice work.

It holds up fine. I had to make the bottom of the fins wide as you can see, as they were cutting into the base of the wad I was using. They leave an imprint now, but always leave the main wad and stay with the slug on its trip to the target. I use them for target shotgun at 25meters. They snap in the bottom of the keydrive, but I do put a large blob of super glue in the slot.

The round one was no better but no worse that the 2 x 20g Wads I was using. The fins are a little bit better. If I don't click then in and glue them they are both slightly worse.

This was my load ....

Now that is pretty slick! Good thinking and good work!

What plastic are you using?

What diameter is the tail wad?

The innovation around here is amazing!

I printed them in PLA. Its hard but flexible. I tried ABS but this was too hard and brittle, although I accept some of this could be layer separation. I also tried PETG which was perfect, but a pain to print and slower / more pricey, so I went back to PLA as its fine for me.

Ill measure size I cant remember, but I made them a few thou smaller than the slug as I didn't want to add binding / friction or anything else as the slug leaves the Sabot Wad if you follow.

Ill keep trying different ones as I think of them, its easy to make the STL and print a few off to try.

I have found so far the Red MEC wads to be the best ..

[longbow]

Those will be nicer and much more consistent than my hot melt glue tail wads for sure. How long do they take to print?

I think I'd be looking for a little larger than the skirt of the slug as the Lee slugs have too much taper (in my opinion)... way more than the taper in the wad petals. I've had pretty good results using straight sided slugs from my push out moulds paper patched up to a proper fit in the wad/bore.

Good stuff. I'll be looking forward to more info and range reports.

I'm hoping to be posting some results of my own as it has been far too long but local weather is the latest hold up. We had a big snow dump on Saturday then the temperature dropped to -12 C (about 10 F). I'm getting a bit wimpy in my old age but -12 with a wind is more than I like to put up with these days. I've shot in -15 but the sun was out and no wind.

Longbow

[BigMrTong]

About 3 hours for a batch of 50

[rsrocket1]

Have you tried the Claybuster Windjammer or Lightning wads? The 8 petal wads are thin and a perfect fit between the slug and a Gun Club hull. I shoot these through an IC choked gun so there is zero fouling but I've heard of some people complaining about Claybuster wads causing plastic fouling, not me.

[AquaBallistic]

I would love a copy of that file to play with if you're prepared to share. A similar exercise is on my (far too long) list and it sounds like you have a working solution already. There's nothing like this that I've seen available to Australia.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Ranch Dog]

Love your work BBT!

Been chasing accuracy issues with Lee slugs in my Marlin 512, just can get the MOA performance good enough for a nilgai hunt I was drawn for that is slug gun only.

It's not the Marlin, Lightfield Hybrid Elite's are very accurate with 5-shot groups running 2 MOA out to 100 yards. I haven't shot the rifle beyond that range.

After today's session I was thinking, this slug needs a finned sabot like the Lightfield. Searched for a 3D "thing" and here I'm.

Really scratching my head with the Lee, been chasing my tail for years. I have about $500 worth of components I've collected over half a dozen years and I've not found anything that will produce acceptable 100 yards accuracy, accurancy on par with the current factory offerings. Kind of wondering if I'm chasing a unicorn.

[Bob9863]

I hear you on that, for the money I've spent trying to create economical slugs at home, I could have bought about 300 factory slugs that shoot **** well out of my gun.

But it's playing with them that's fun.

[longbow]

Ranch Dog:

Haven't seen you here in a while!

While I can't help with rifled gun accuracy I will share what seems to be helping my smoothbore accuracy with Lee slugs. Now, this will depend on wads used too. I'm currently using Winchester 1 oz. and 1 1/4 oz. wads which both have fairly thin petals and not a lot of taper. I noticed that the Lee slugs have a lot of taper! As in a lot! My Lee 1 oz. slug has 0.018" taper between nose and base, the 7/8 oz. has 0.020" taper between nose and base. The wads run about 0.006" to 0.008" (so 0.012" to 0.018" in diameter) over the full length of the petal so that means at the slug length the slug has about twice the taper the wad petals do so tight at the nose and loose at the base in the shotcup.

I decided to make a sizer to take the taper out of the lee slugs then paper patch back up to snug fit. So far that has improved accuracy dramatically even though the slugs have no taper now.

Alternately Randy Buchanan posted the taper on his Claybuster WAA clone wads and it pretty much matches the taper on the Lee slugs and Lyman sabot slugs:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ey-can-send-me

Not sure what components you've tried but you should take a look at wad petal taper then try to find something that matches the Lee slug taper. That may help... or maybe not but worth a check and try anyway.

Slug shooting... it is a challenge!

Good luck!

Longbow

[BigMrTong]

Yes I have spent a lot of time on this and could have just bought them .. however it's fun to do the testing and dev.

I updated my load slightly and got a lot better results.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Lee-Slug-Load

The thing about the Lee slugs, is any slight change in Hull wad, filler crimnp etc, makes a massive difference, and also the shotgun used.

[Ranch Dog]

Hate to step off the Custom wad topic but in response to the question, here is what I've whittled my components down to from the huge inventory I have.

• Cheddite 3" hull
• Lee 1-ounce slug
• One BP 20-Gauge Nitro Card between the slug and wad cup
• Federal 12S3 Column Wad with the petals trimmed to the aft edge of the slug's ogive.
• BPGS Gas Seal
• 25 to 26-grains of Hodgdon's International

From my Marlin 512, I've seen great accuracy out to 50-yards. Velocity has been 1615 FPS with 25-grains and 1630 FPS with the 26-grains.

Here is a target from two days ago, shot at 50 yards. It is a bit busy, but I adjusted the zero from the previous days shooting and went back to 2 3/4" shell to test my theory that they suck in a 3" chamber.



I've been messing with this work in short bursts for five to six years. I haven't done a lot of reading or watching up to this year because I wanted just to walk through and determine what works and what doesn't on my own. Here is my list of what has delivered my best results:

• Hull length matches chamber length, don't create freebore with a shorter hull.
• The column wad petals are not to be longer than the start of the ogive radius of the slug. Trim them if needed. The nose of the slug must completely open the star crimp before the leading edge of the petals encounters the star.
• A 16 or 20 gauge card wad is needed between the slug and the column wad cup.
• Use a six-star crimp vs. an eight.
• Index the center of a petal with the fold of star crimp.

As a note, I've been able to recover 100% of the column wads I've shot off my range. I note every wad reference it's shot with a survey flag so I can see the relationship of the shot against it impact at the target. With the trimmed Federal petals, I have not had a single petal erode off and the bore/groove grip has been perfect.



I shot at 75-yards yesterday and the good groups I've been shooting went to heck. Fired 12 more rounds yesterday afternoon. Punched three through the bullseye at 50 yards. Shot nine at 75 -yards, only two hit the target backing, not the target. Just kill me

With the little bit more distance, the three power scope let me see some of the components separate in flight. I saw the slug on the final shot. It became unstable passing the 50-yard berm; its flight became an ever-increasing helical that disappeared in the thick brush surrounding the berm.

I'm kidding myself in thinking that any amount of load work can cure the poor design relationship of the center of lift/pressure being aft of the center of gravity.



This is simply a no/no in cast bullet design. It is said that the 7/8 ounce slug shoots better, but I'm not going to mess with it either as it suffers the same ill. What a rabbit hole. I do think all this could be corrected with a replacement drive key pin rather than a totally new mold design. I've got my thoughts on an improved pin.

Deer season opened this morning and my nilgai hunt, a public draw hunt that requires slug guns, is in two weeks. I think I will just shoot the Lightfields I have and drop my work with the Lee slugs. NOE is going to be offering a Lyman shuttcock clone which I will have in a week or two, to late for the nilgai hunt. I'm also thinking about going to a full bore projectile, the Accurate 73-470S. I drew it up and it looks like it will be a very stable bullet to me, my calculation is that it remains stable down to 65 FPS with the Marlin's 1:28 twist.

[Ranch Dog]

If anyone is interested, here is where I documented my recent work with the Lee slugs.

https://www.lee-loader.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2578

[longbow]

That wad certainly looks good!

From what Randy says the Federal wad petal taper pretty much matches the Lee and Lyman slug tapers which are pretty close. It looks like you have even bearing or at least the petals squish to give even bearing over the slug length.

It would be interesting to see BigMrTong's modified slug shot from rifled gun. That added fin length should correct the issues you found with center of pressure and CG. It is a bit surprising that Lee didn't pick up on that and extend the skirt or change geometry to fix that.

There is another thread where the fellow used an epoxy to fill the "key" slot to turn the Lee slugs into a more traditional HB Foster style and he seems to be doing pretty well with it. By removing the "key" weight should shift towards the nose. BigMrTong's approach should accomplish the same thing by extending the tail with light material.

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

I went off the deep end and bought the Accurate 73-470S.

[W.R.Buchanan]

RD: Al's got the Lyman Slug Moulds in 2 and 4 cav in stock right now... mine shipped yesterday. I should have it Monday. 11/5.

I got some of those blue Claybuster wads and the way they are made the base of the shot cup has a raised center portion that should fit in the base of the Lyman Slug. It is the exact opposite of the regular Claybuster WAA12 clone which has a ring at the base of the shot cup.

Since the base of the skirt of the slug is what gets pushed during launch I think the intention was to keep the skirt as close to the centerline of the bore as possible by not letting it wobble while moving down the barrel.

You are running 1600ish fps? you might try toning that down to around 1300 fps and see if the accuracy doesn't improve. AS far as knock down you got 59.6 with 1oz slugs at 1300 fps as opposed to 84! with 1 1/8 oz slugs at 1600 fps. Since a .458 WM is only 70 with a 500 gr boolit at 2150 fps I think you'd have more than enough HP for a Nilgai.

I shot this group at 50 yards at Front Sight last week with Federal Hydra Shok 1 oz slugs,,, "Off hand." It is 2x3 and there's probably more there off a rest. We didn't shoot farther so I don't know if the slugs went stupid after that.

The only way I see getting past this is with something that is seriously drag stabilized or a rifled barrel.

I thought you were using your Enfield for this hunt?

Randy

[Ranch Dog]

RD: Al's got the Lyman Slug Moulds in 2 and 4 cav in stock right now... mine shipped yesterday. I should have it Monday. 11/5.

I talked to Al yesterday afternoon, and he said that my mold is enroute as well. It might be close.

I got some of those blue Claybuster wads and the way they are made the base of the shot cup has a raised center portion that should fit in the base of the Lyman Slug. It is the exact opposite of the regular Claybuster WAA12 clone which has a ring at the base of the shot cup.

Since the base of the skirt of the slug is what gets pushed during launch I think the intention was to keep the skirt as close to the centerline of the bore as possible by not letting it wobble while moving down the barrel.

The problem I had with the Claybuster wads I have is that both the compression strut and the petals failed (trimmed and untrimmed). I went back out to take a picture of my collection of shot column wads but, sure enough, I had sent them on there way with Tuesday trash pickup. I probably will start from scratch with the NOE 680-500-FN and work back through all my powders and column wads to see what is what. I do think the shuttlecock design is better suited for life with untrimmed petals.

You are running 1600ish fps? you might try toning that down to around 1300 fps and see if the accuracy doesn't improve. AS far as knock down you got 59.6 with 1oz slugs at 1300 fps as opposed to 84! with 1 1/8 oz slugs at 1600 fps. Since a .458 WM is only 70 with a 500 gr boolit at 2150 fps I think you'd have more than enough HP for a Nilgai.

What I did with my available powders is look through the various slug reloading sources I have and find a min and max for each powder and work from there. International's velocity surprized me at the minimum start load plus with the first shot group the MOA performance was way beyond that delivered with Clays, HS-6, Unique, or Universal. It is also the cleanest burning of the group, a white patch through the bore is white. I've had it sitting on the shelf, trying to figure out what to do with it as it was sent to me in error when I ordered Clays. It is a scary powder with metallic reloading and the only use I have found for it is with the 25 Auto.

I shot this group at 50 yards at Front Sight last week with Federal Hydra Shok 1 oz slugs,,, "Off hand." It is 2x3 and there's probably more there off a rest. We didn't shoot farther so I don't know if the slugs went stupid after that.

The only way I see getting past this is with something that is seriously drag stabilized or a rifled barrel.

That is good shooting. I have a smooth bore barrel with rifle sights for my Mossberg 500, it is a New Haven 600 (discount store version), and once I get a slug figured out will see how it shoots from the smooth bore.

I would also like to get to the point that I could shoot the Lee .69" round ball against their one-ounce slug through my rifle barrel. I'm curious about that based on my experience with round ball loads in centerfire rifles. When it gets to the math, as it is spinning from the rifling twist, it should be stable. CG is equal to CL. Place the sprue cut at the base, and CG moves ever so slightly behind CL.

I'm a Front Sight guy, just the pistol stuff, but would like to do the shotgun. As a retired guy with travel benefits, the airline travel isn't that big a deal but with the firearm in the belly of the airliner it is. I've bought tickets to follow it. I've started training locally because, with this group, reloaded ammunition is acceptable.

I thought you were using your Enfield for this hunt?

I was drawn for a whitetail/nilgai hunt, and the unit is small compared to the others that are hunted in the Lower Rio Grande Valley system. Because of the whitetail deer hunting and the size of the property (1160 huntable acres), there is some kind of rule in the National Wildlife Refuge code that requires shotguns with slugs or muzzleloaders be used. Whatever controls it is screwy as the Youth hunts can use centerfire rifles. After the whitetail season, the hunts become an "exotic/invasive species" hunt with centerfire rifles allowed. The good thing about this hunt is in that a slug gun is required, a lot of hunters here in South Texas don't apply as the average nimrod doesn't even know what that means.

I was also drawn for the "exotic" hunt in February, so I plan to hunt with the SMLE. The 45-70 if it is bace from Robert Bose, he is working on a scout scope base for the barrel. If it isn't done in time I will use my SMLE Scout that he built. I figure more nilgai have been taken with the 303 British than any other cartridge so why not. Here are those rifles for those that might be curious.





I do have five-shot, flush magazines on the way from UK for this rifle.