RotoMetals2WidenersTitan ReloadingStainLess Steel Media
Lee PrecisionInline FabricationMidSouth Shooters SupplyGraf & Sons

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Expansion and penetration?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60

    Expansion and penetration?

    I started another long winded thread (on my part) that ended up to this question: What do you think of this design, but hollow point converted, cast at around 8-10 bhn and shot at 1000 fps in a 1:20 16" barrell single shot rifle?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43-350R-D.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	28.5 KB 
ID:	213899

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    JSnover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bensalem, PA
    Posts
    3,340
    I like that big fat, flat-nose for breaking bone. If it was my mold and I wanted to HP it, I might keep the cavity shallow to keep it from over-expanding; breaking up or giving up some penetration for the mushroom. What do you plan to shoot?
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    6,006
    At subsonic velocity up to about 1450 fps you don't need the GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them.

    What cartridge case are you loading this in .444 or?
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    I like that big fat, flat-nose for breaking bone. If it was my mold and I wanted to HP it, I might keep the cavity shallow to keep it from over-expanding; breaking up or giving up some penetration for the mushroom. What do you plan to shoot?
    Texas Whitetail, which aren’t very big. And possibly hogs from time to time.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    At subsonic velocity up to about 1450 fps you don't need the GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them.

    What cartridge case are you loading this in .444 or?
    44 mag

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    6,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerock2000 View Post
    44 mag
    With bullet that heavy, how are you rethroating the barrel, so that bullet intrusion into the powder space is not robbing you of powder capacity and spiking pressure from the increased load density? How are you determining loads, you running QL?
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    nicholst55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Daegu, Korea
    Posts
    2,812
    Just my personal opinion, but you don't need a bullet that heavy for Texas whitetails, and probably not even for hogs. It's your choice, of course, but I think I'd drop that bullet down to about 300-315 grains, and lose the gas check. That will give you more powder capacity, especially if you want to use it for dual duty in a revolver.

    One positive note - using a bullet that long and heavy would give you a good excuse to have Hamilton Bowen build you a long-cylinder Long Hunter conversion on a Super Blackhawk!

    http://bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/...nversions.html
    Boycott YouTube

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    mdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    So. Orygun
    Posts
    5,374
    Looks like a Ranch Dog design, with a hollow point...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    6,006
    FWIW I find that Accurate's 43-230G double-crimp-groove design works just dandy in both revolver and rifle, in either .44 Special, .44-40 or .44 Magnum and it's a great one size fits all .44 bullet. Seat out and crimp in the rear crimp groove in .44 Special or in Ruger .44 Magnums having longer cylinders, to provide added powder capacity. Crimp in the front groove to maintain SAAMI overall length for feeding in lever actions.

    Deer don't seem embarrassed to be shot with a lighter bullet. Tom at Accurate can make the base band wider to adjust weight for a heavier bullet if you prefer, but I have not found any lack of penetration with this one and the 230-grain bullet has a flatter trajectory than heavier ones at subsonic velocity.

    Attachment 213998

    .44-40 Load___________Ruger 5-1/2"_____Ruger 7-1/2"____H&R 19.5"Backpack Bunny Gun”

    43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2 BE__997, 10 Sd________1052, 9 Sd_____1199, 6 Sd_+P, modern guns only 1.60" OAL

    .44 Mag. Load__________Ruger 5-1/2"______Ruger 7-1/2"___Marlin 20”__Remarks

    43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2BE___978, 18Sd________1044, 21Sd_____1178, 7Sd_1.59” OAL cr.top groove

    43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 24.5RL7_1022, 18Sd_______1151, 21Sd_____1432, 26Sd__1.59”OAL
    Last edited by Outpost75; 02-11-2018 at 09:18 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    With bullet that heavy, how are you rethroating the barrel, so that bullet intrusion into the powder space is not robbing you of powder capacity and spiking pressure from the increased load density? How are you determining loads, you running QL?
    Since it is a single shot rifle, I am not crimping them and thus can seat the bullet further out of the case if needed. I have plenty of chamber length. However, I have been loading with Titegroup, which is a very dense powder. No chance of a compressed load, but certainly have to be vigilant when reloading not to double charge. Hodgdon has loads for a 355 LFN, which doesn't seat as far in the case as this boolit if this boolit is seated to the crimp groove.
    Last edited by Bluerock2000; 02-14-2018 at 07:32 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by nicholst55 View Post
    Just my personal opinion, but you don't need a bullet that heavy for Texas whitetails, and probably not even for hogs. It's your choice, of course, but I think I'd drop that bullet down to about 300-315 grains, and lose the gas check. That will give you more powder capacity, especially if you want to use it for dual duty in a revolver.

    One positive note - using a bullet that long and heavy would give you a good excuse to have Hamilton Bowen build you a long-cylinder Long Hunter conversion on a Super Blackhawk!

    http://bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/...nversions.html
    Haha. Boy that's all I need, another project! I understand your point on the weight, but since recoil is insignificant regardless of boolit weight, and trajectory is set because velocity is, my thought is the heaviest projectile I can load that will shoot accurately in case I need the additional penetration. It's not going to break my heart if this boolit expands readily and plows through deer and pigs.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master



    jmort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Color Me Gone
    Posts
    7,490
    "... (no) GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them."

    You might save some time but how do you save "lots of money????"
    A gas check will never hurt, possibly/probably help, but never cost "lots of money." Time yes, money, no.
    With a meplat that wide, why go with a hollow-point??? Lead Bullets Technology
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    "... (no) GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them."

    You might save some time but how do you save "lots of money????"
    A gas check will never hurt, possibly/probably help, but never cost "lots of money." Time yes, money, no.
    With a meplat that wide, why go with a hollow-point??? Lead Bullets Technology
    My reasoning for the HP is this: With that heavy of a boolit I'm going to get a pass-thru on deer regardless of FN or HP, so why not create a larger wound channel. By doubling the diameter of the boolit via expansion, surface area, and thus tissue damage, increases by over 400%. I'm likely splitting hairs, but I can't seem the harm in making it a HP. But that's why I posted, to get input on what I'm not considering. And I agree on the GC. At pennies apiece, they can't hurt and could possibly help. Especially as I'm a novice caster.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    Looks like a Ranch Dog design, with a hollow point...
    I had not heard of them until your post. Too bad they're out of business, because that is exactly what that design is. Apparently NOE is making some of their molds, but not that one. And this design is from the Accurate Mold website. He's been very helpful and, from what I can tell and have read, makes a great mold.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    mdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    So. Orygun
    Posts
    5,374
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    State of Denial
    Posts
    2,340
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerock2000 View Post
    My reasoning for the HP is this: With that heavy of a boolit I'm going to get a pass-thru on deer regardless of FN or HP, so why not create a larger wound channel. . .
    There's a couple of ways you can play that.

    Unless you're looking a running a suppressor, I would decrease the weight (250-275 is plenty) and increase the speed, thus improving trajectory. That accomplished, you can run a harder alloy with an aggressive meplat and not have to fuss with the extra "joys" of casting a hollowpoint design, using your additional speed to swap expansion for a bit of "bow wave" displacement. The thing I like about this approach is that it whittles down some variables - you don't have to sweat amount of expansion as changed by impact speed, which is changed by distance.

    Gas checks. . .Useful for higher velocities in general and at higher velocities with softer alloys in particular. Also useful if you aren't 100% certain of your bullet-to-bore fit. My own preference is to avoid fiddling with them whenever practical - nothing within my handgun recoil tolerance range really requires them. A subsonic load certainly does not, but a balls-to-the-wall load in a rifle might. That said, I've got a well-fitted plain base, hard alloy .32 coming quite happily out of a Martini Cadet at 1600 fps using powders that would be right at home in a .44 with no leading and good 100 yard accuracy. Checks don't hurt, but in "borderland" rounds like the .44, I'd rather front-load the work on bullet fit and save time on the back not needing to install them. I would save them for more extreme applications in that caliber.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Insightful response and thank you. I actually am running this through a suppressor, hence the velocity limitation. That’s why I’m after such a heavy boolit. With regard to the GC, I understand and agree with your reasoning. But I won’t be shooting a ton of these, mainly used just for hunting. I figure for a few extra cents they can’t hurt. On the .275’s I’m loading now, they actually help keep the soft boolit from being swaged down by the case. I’ve slugged my bore and it measured .431. I’m having the mold built to .432. I’m also having the lube grooves removed as I’ll be powder coating. I placed the order for the mold last night. Once I receive it I’ll send it off for hollow point modification, so I’ve got a few weeks to figure out what diameter/depth/style of HP.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,415
    A question from one with no personal experience with suppressors. A very good friend who shoots several rifles with them is terrified to put a gas check thru it. Is there any validity to that concern, baffle strike if the check were to come off in a chamber? Have thought of setting up something like you have but it's gonna shoot cast or I don't need it. I understand the check is unneeded at 1050 but I also understand the degree to have it jic.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  19. #19
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kalif.
    Posts
    5,478
    If you are casting that soft, you want a shallow cup point for best support of the hollow point as it expands.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Georgetown, TX
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    A question from one with no personal experience with suppressors. A very good friend who shoots several rifles with them is terrified to put a gas check thru it. Is there any validity to that concern, baffle strike if the check were to come off in a chamber? Have thought of setting up something like you have but it's gonna shoot cast or I don't need it. I understand the check is unneeded at 1050 but I also understand the degree to have it jic.
    I don’t have any experience with shooting casts through one either as everyone I know personally uses jacketed through them. I had planned to install the GC prior to powder coating to eliminate this possibility, but maybe I’m not giving this risk due consideration. The possible benefits gained from the GC certainly don’t outweigh the risk of a ruined suppressor, small as the risk may be. I’ll research this further. May need to go with a PB after all.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check