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Thread: .308 High Velocity at 500 yards.

  1. #161
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    How many clicks was that for you at 500, Waco? I saw you spinning in a bunch of drop in the video.

    Gear

  2. #162
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    From a 100 yard zero it was 25 MOA adjustment up.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  3. #163
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    I was shooting at 1400 feet above sea level at 35 degrees F
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  4. #164
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    Zeroed 1" high at 100. The Weaver 10x MicroTrac has friction adjustments and appeared by the markings I went up 22.5 moa from the 100 yard zero. Not sure the marks on the turret are true moa. Computer ballistic program says up 24.5 moa from 100 yd zero.

    Elevation was about 1200 feet. Temp was 45.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  5. #165
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    What we have here are two families each going on vacation at the same resort. One family flies in because the resort IS the entire reason for the trip. Nothing matters but the final destination. The other family takes a couple days to drive to the resort and stops along the way to see new things and enjoy some time together.
    While each family gets to the resort the WAY they get there is very different. One views the travel as something to be endured and only the resort matters. The other family values the trip as highly as the resort.
    Neither is right or wrong, each did what was important to them.

    Waco COULD screw a long, slower twist barrel on his rifle and get 2500 fps with accuracy quite easily. Nobody is arguing with that. The key is what would he LEARN by doing so?
    Waco prefers to learn to shoot his 20" 10 twist barrel to the maximum he can get out of it. Why? Because the PROCESS is more important than the final result.
    Waco wants to LEARN. Learning is an accumulation of personal experiences. He is already learning to cast a better bullet and understand the relationship between alloys, heat treating, and pressure curves.

    See Larry, none of disagree that a long, slow twist barrel makes higher velocity with accuracy easier. None of us.

    Where we do disagree is on the message we give to the guy with a short barrel in a faster twist. We can either encourage them to try and keep learning or we can discourage them with stories of how much easier it would be with a different barrel.

    We want to encourage anyone to get the most they can from what they got. Get out and try different things. Make observations on what worked and what didn't. Learn from it. Grow from it. Let the experience force you to casst the best possible bullets, to load the straightest possible ammo, to really understand what happens when we ignite a charge of powder behind our little lump of lead. Failures will teach you more than successes. Will it take a bunch of time and effort? **** straight it will but what in life that is worth accomplishing is easy?

    Stop and smell the roses. Understand that the adventure is not just arriving there, it is getting there. What we learn from our trials and tribulations is far more important than the final result. Encourage others to run what they brung.

    Can we at least agree that encouraging others to push the envelope, their personal envelope, is a worthwhile endeavor? I know of more than a few who are looking at doing just that because of what Waco posted. I applaud Waco for posting his video. Who knows how many others will be encouraged to see if they can do more than they thought possible.

    Far more will be learned by encouraging people to do more with what they have than by telling them they are handicapped by it. Waco doesn't view his barrel as a handicap, merely something that needs to be tamed and understood. I think he is well on his way.

    See Larry, we don't disagree as much as we have different view points. We may take a few days longer to get to the resort but we will have a great time on the way.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  6. #166
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    Waco

    Keep in mind with the fast twist and velocity (high RPM) and the relatively low BC the 30 XCB has a lot of bullet spindrift. This is especially noticeable at longer range like 500 yards with the longer time of flight. I have notice the affect of the spindrift difference between the various twists at 300 yards given their different RPM and time of flight.

    The higher rate of spindrift with the 10" twist at 2260 +/- fps has a noticeable affect on the bullets flight and impact also. The spindrift is not just in a lateral movement because the wind direction and speed is the greatest influencing factor. This is not to be confused with normal wind drift of the bullet. The changes in point of impact both laterally and vertically can also account for discrepancies in elevation changes. It is one of the many variables that must also be considered in LR shooting.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #167
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    FWIW:
    Scopes have mechanical clicks/setting that are within reasonable accuracy. The real difference is in the distance between the scope rings. MOA doesn't mean much when 2 identical rifles/scopes/caliber/ammo are setup with 4 1/2"'s between the rings on 1 rifle and the other rifle is setup with 5 1/2"'s between the rings.

    Burris is kind enough to put this cart out to be used with their rings/inserts.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Burris inserts are in 1/1000th's increments meaning a 20MOA insert ='s 20/1000th's. A side benefit of the chart is anyone can measure the distance between the rings on their firearm and get the true values of their scopes clicks. Along with finding out simple things like how much to either take off a scope base or shim a base to for a desired built in MOA. The chart is also useful to tell you things like how many clicks/how much adjustment you need to either move the crosshairs/dots/ect to the point of impact or how much to adjust/shim the rings or mounts to get the bullets impact and the scope centered (elev & horz) to be the same.

    The last rifle I setup a a 308w puma rifle. The bbl was shot out and needed replaced. I tested a couple of bbl's and then got serous. On Larry's advice I bought a 1 in 14 twist (jacketed & cast/equally important to me) and installed/bedded the new bbl. Put a sightron 36x on the rifle with the elevation and horizontal turrets centered in the click values and using a 165gr/2700fps load I centered to point of impact of the bullet horizontally and 2MOA high to the centered scope by removing metal from the scope bases and honing the rings. Then I setup the bases to have 30MOA built into them. Lastly I put -30 inserts in the burris rings to get back to the 100yd/2" high zero.

    My scope rings are 4.625" (4 5/8") apart.

  8. #168
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Larry. I shoot my 338 Lapua out to 1760 yards, one mile, every summer over in the Eastern part of Oregon. I am quit aware of spin drift, Coriolis effect, ect....
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by waco View Post
    Larry. I shoot my 338 Lapua out to 1760 yards, one mile, every summer over in the Eastern part of Oregon. I am quit aware of spin drift, Coriolis effect, ect....
    Waco

    No offense meant, this a forum.....a discussion. Things get thrown out that we may know or not know. I do not know what you know. The point I was making, which you may or may not have known, is that bullet spindrift is not much of a concern with high velocity low drag bullets, such as you use in your 338 Lapua, until they get well beyond the ranges we are shooting cast bullets at. However, with slower velocity cast bullets with much lower BCs, especially in fast twist rifles at relative high RPM spindrift is a concern at even the shorter ranges past 100 yards out to the 500 yards we are shooting cast bullets at. You may know that, I may know that, but many others who read these posts may not know that and thus they may learn something from the discussion.

    Might I suggest not taking everything said as personal criticism but just as part of the overall discussion so everyone here, including you and I, can benefit from the knowledge gained? Forrest r's recent "FWIW" post is an excellent example; it's good informative information which you may know and I may know so it may not be applicable to us. However, others may not know that information which may be applicable to others wanting to shoot long range with cast bullets. This information is an excellent method to get additional elevation adjustment using whatever scope.

    I use a somewhat different method by either using a base with a 20 or 30 degree moa slant or by shimming the rear of the base to achieve the same. I believe you mentioned using a 20 degree moa base(?) earlier or in your video(?) on your M700 .308W. I assume you probably use the same on your Lapua to shoot the longer range mentioned(?). Thus Forrest r's information is not applicable to us but it may be to others. That's what discussion on forums are supposed to foster, an exchange of information so we may learn.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 03-06-2018 at 12:24 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  10. #170
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Yep. 20 MOA base on both of those rifles.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  11. #171
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    I just want to point out that I am still the greatest key board commando ever,
    and I want to thank Forrest for that scope angle chart.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    FWIW:
    Scopes have mechanical clicks/setting that are within reasonable accuracy. The real difference is in the distance between the scope rings. MOA doesn't mean much when 2 identical rifles/scopes/caliber/ammo are setup with 4 1/2"'s between the rings on 1 rifle and the other rifle is setup with 5 1/2"'s between the rings.

    Burris is kind enough to put this cart out to be used with their rings/inserts.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Burris inserts are in 1/1000th's increments meaning a 20MOA insert ='s 20/1000th's. A side benefit of the chart is anyone can measure the distance between the rings on their firearm and get the true values of their scopes clicks. Along with finding out simple things like how much to either take off a scope base or shim a base to for a desired built in MOA. The chart is also useful to tell you things like how many clicks/how much adjustment you need to either move the crosshairs/dots/ect to the point of impact or how much to adjust/shim the rings or mounts to get the bullets impact and the scope centered (elev & horz) to be the same.

    The last rifle I setup a a 308w puma rifle. The bbl was shot out and needed replaced. I tested a couple of bbl's and then got serous. On Larry's advice I bought a 1 in 14 twist (jacketed & cast/equally important to me) and installed/bedded the new bbl. Put a sightron 36x on the rifle with the elevation and horizontal turrets centered in the click values and using a 165gr/2700fps load I centered to point of impact of the bullet horizontally and 2MOA high to the centered scope by removing metal from the scope bases and honing the rings. Then I setup the bases to have 30MOA built into them. Lastly I put -30 inserts in the burris rings to get back to the 100yd/2" high zero.

    My scope rings are 4.625" (4 5/8") apart.
    I see how the ring spacing affects the actual displacement of shimming rings. I do not understand how it impacts the amount of displacement dailed in with the turret.
    Don Verna


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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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