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Thread: .308 High Velocity at 500 yards.

  1. #61
    Boolit Buddy Cheshire Dave's Avatar
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    Great shooting and I love the video. Did Julie do the work on the video? I'm not surprised at the shooting because I taught you everything you know. Okay I taught you everything I know big difference. You far surpass anything I've been able to do with cast bullets. I am just tinkering around with weird stuff

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  2. #62
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheshire Dave View Post
    Great shooting and I love the video. Did Julie do the work on the video? I'm not surprised at the shooting because I taught you everything you know. Okay I taught you everything I know big difference. You far surpass anything I've been able to do with cast bullets. I am just tinkering around with weird stuff

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    Dave. You taught me a lot back in the day. I am grateful for it too. Thanks for the kind words. We need to meet up soon!
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  3. #63
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Larry. In the video the 30 XCB I shot were weight sorted to .3gr (169.3-169.6)
    I got my new mold and cast up 500 or so. After visual culls were tossed I decided what could it hurt to sort them out to exact weights?
    At least to the parameters of my RCBS Chargmaster 1500 scale.
    If .3gr was good....0 should be better, or at least no worse.
    Walter
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  4. #64
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Waco

    Looks like your weight sortment has the "bell curve" to it we all thought was good (?). And it is good for 99% of cast bullet shooting. That is until you really start pushing HV with cast bullets. To get the better bullets than I was casting I found a few years back the "curve" with XCBs should not be a "bell" but should curve up as the weight increases, plateau out on the heavy end and then there should be hardly any bullets after that. It is those bullets with the last .3 gr in weight of that "plateau" that will give the best accuracy. The testing shown in that thread demonstrates that. Weight sorting and then simply shooting those of one weight, once the really light ones are culled out, really produces little in accuracy improvement, especially if you are pushing them at high RPM.

    It is the heaviest bullets coming out of the mould that are the most filled out and are the best balanced. Those are what you want. In the "normal bell curve" such as it appears you have we get few of those "best bullets". I suggest you read the testing I did and attendant explanation. Be glad to answer any questions then.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  5. #65
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Larry. I'd really like to see results from your 500 yard tests in the .308
    I need to cast up several more batches of the XCB possibly with a tweak of the alloy if this last one does not preform well.
    I will look for patterns in the weight of the next batch. Thank you for your input and testing you have shown. I would really like to compare my 500 yard results with yours if your willing to share. I'm curious as to what powders you have had luck with. IMR4831 has proven good so far. I'm not sure I can squeeze out to much more velocity with such a slow powder. I'm thinking I might have to toughen up the alloy and go to a bit faster powder.
    Your thoughts?
    Walter
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  6. #66
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    Waco

    Been a while since I've done any testing with the NOE 30 XCB bullet in my 10" twist .308W with 24" barrel. I don't recall shooting it past 300 yards and then with the RL19 load I used to demonstrate how to push the RPM Threshold up it held sub 2 moa. That load was 44 gr RL19 which gave 2313 fps with an ES of 30 fps and an SD of 9 fps for the 10 shot test string. The measured psi was 38,900.

    H4831SC was tested in the .308W M70 Match rifle with 12" twist 26" barrel under the NOE 30 XCB. The load was 47 gr which gave 2433 fps with and ES of 33 fps, an SD of 11 fps and at a measured psi of 34,500. Accuracy through 500 yards held right at 1 1/2 moa.

    A lot more of my testing with the NOE was with my .308W Palma rifle with a 14" twist 27.5" Schultz & Larson light contour Palma barrel. Neither H4831SC or RL19 proved acceptable in this rifle. I then tried AA4350 and found instant success being able to push to 2600 fps and holding 1.5 moa to 400 yards. When pushed to 2700 fps the groups opened to 2 - 3 moa. I found a 5 mph cross wind meant 15 - 18" of wind drift so paying attention to wind is very important. The measured BC of the XCB bullet at that velocity is .250. So if using ballistic programs I suggest using that BC instead of the higher computed BC listed on the NOE bullet spec sheet.

    The vast majority of my NOE 30 XCB bullet testing has been out of the 30x60 XCB cartridge in my rifle "DAWN". With its 31" barrel with 16" twist I have pushed the XCB bullet to 3100+ fps but have found excellent accuracy right at 2900+ fps. That has been mostly with AA4350 powder. I have 2739 rounds through DAWN now with probably 95+% being 30 XCBs. That has covered a lot of testing at 100 to 300 yards. I have done some informal shooting out to 600 yards but nothing really serious yet.

    The cold front that probably is dropping snow on you has gotten down here (not nearly as cold and no snow!) with attendant winds. I have been patiently waiting for a break with mild winds to seriously test DAWM and the 30x60 XCB cartridge at 600 yards. I may load some of the 45 gr AA4350 2433 fps loads up for the M70 in .308W and test at 500 yards. Heavy winds forecast upwards of 16+ MPH through Sunday. Monday it begins warming up and the winds drop so maybe the first of next week(?).
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #67
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    vzerone

    Where oh where do you dream up this stuff.....

    You understand wrong as usual, here's the problem with what you just posted; "I understand that Tim is the one that introduced you to running your pot with a PID to maintain a constant temperature. Yet you proclaim how accurate your tests are often using the word scientific.".....

    Fact is Tim never introduced me to using a PID on my pot. As a matter of fact I do not use a PID at all. I use two casting thermometers to maintain a constant temperature. I'm sure now, knowing that, you'll howl to high heaven it can't be done because you read a post somewhere on the internet that said so. How is it you hallucinate and conjure up such falsehoods to fit your own claims?

    Yes, truly shooting cast bullets at HV the last 10+ years has been a learning curve for me. I have posted most of that learning on this forum. Unlike some, I never claimed to know everything from day one. I have learned as I have experimented in scientific manner and have learned along the way. I used to cast pretty darned good bullets just like I've stated. Then I started shooting HV with cast. In that 10 years I've learned "good" was great for normal cast bullet shooting but at HV/high RPM "good" just was good enough. So I learned how to cast better if not excellent cast bullets because the better you can cast the bullet the better balanced it will be to start with. That is the point I was making to Waco......learn to cast not just good bullets but better bullets and how to select the best of those for HV/high RPM shooting, especially at longer range.

    My NOE mould is a 4 cavity aluminum mould. I have segregated the bullets by cavity and they weigh essentially the same. I suppose you're now going to tell us, simply because I said that, NOE moulds are shoddy and can't do that?

    If you knew anything about ballistics you would understand had I cast and used poor bullets in the RPM Threshold tests the results would have been more dramatic and lent greater credence to the results. That is because the premiss to the RPM Threshold is the adverse affect any imbalance in the bullet can have. Fact is I did use good cast bullets for the test (the test wasn't done with the 30 XCB bullet), I just cast better excellent 30 XCB bullets now. I could post a picture of my 30 XCBs alongside those fine 6.5 bullets you sent me (oops, that was your "cuz" wasn't it). Anyway that would show everyone what excellently cast XCB bullets look like compared to some very poor cast bullets that were claimed to shoot extremely if not unbelievably well at high RPM. But we really don't want to do that do we?

    As to quoting Bryan Litz (if your going to quote him you might spell his name correctly; it's Bryan, not Brian....) your previous quote of his was with regard to the best long range match bullets made, jacketed of course, of the VLD type. Not a mention of cast bullets there at all. It was about the affect over spinning has on bullet stability. Bullet stability and the RPM Threshold are 2 different things. So let's actually quote Bryan from his very fine book, Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting, on the topic of imbalances in bullets. He is talking again about the finest quality jacketed match bullets and not cast bullets. Thus while the affect on jacketed bullets is not as great as it is on cast bullets (because the imbalances are greater on cast bullets) let's see what Bryan has to say that is actually pertinent;

    "Consider the effect of a slight mass imbalance, probably caused by the jacket being thicker on one side than the other. An imbalance like this will cause dispersion because as the bullet emerges from the muzzle, its center of gravity gets flung off on a tangent ."

    How many times have I explained that very phenomenon....the centrifugal force cause the bullet to fly off on a tangent to it's intended flight path.

    Then let's quote Robert Rinker from his book Understanding Ballistics; "A bullet that is laterally unbalanced will be forced to conform while still in the barrel and its center of gravity (mass) will revolve around its geometric center. When it is free of the barrel constraint, it will move in the direction that its mass center had at the point of release. After exiting the muzzle, the geometric center will begin to revolve about the center of mass and it will depart at an angle to the bore. At 54,oo rpm to 250,000 rpm depending on velocity and twist, the centrifugal force can be tremendous. It will result in an outward radial acceleration from the intended flight path and with try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix."

    My goodness, there is that "helical arc" I often mention......

    Not a theory vzerone, but ballistic fact as stated from ballisticians, including Bryan Litz who you like to quote out of context.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 02-23-2018 at 02:17 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #68
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Sure am glad I'm a new guy at this stuff with no opinions. With an advanced degree in tire balancing, I do have to agree with Larry G, on rotational stability and the heavy side of the bell curve. I always wished my school grades were there.
    Whatever!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Sure am glad I'm a new guy at this stuff with no opinions.
    You're not new popper and you do exceptionally very good work. I never miss one of your posts.

  10. #70
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Ok, I will add. This is not an opinion. Tim and Larry have the right approach to the problem but! Statistically, the bell curve is a distribution of a sample with an unknown # of variables. Selecting the middle (by weight) only gets them identical by weight! Imperfections may still exist (so do the visual inspection). Gets the 'load' close to identical, good. Getting a curve that moves the peak toward the heavy side does provide more "perfect" boolits as cast. Any tricks we can apply to get this lopsided curve will make us better casters and provide better boolits. Targets will show the results.
    Whatever!

  11. #71
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    Thank you to those of you, who are nicely discussing Waco's well detailed shooting report.
    Last edited by JonB_in_Glencoe; 02-23-2018 at 04:05 PM.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Thank you to those of you, who are nicely discussing Waco's well detailed shooting report.
    Many thanks to you too....
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #73
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    I have been following this thread with interest. It is unfortunate that the subject of high velocity can not be approached on this forum without it descending into chaos.

    There are differences of opinion on the subject. Some supported by data and some intriguing ideas that I think warrant more investigation.

    It's a shame differences of approach and opinion can not simply be voiced and left at that without reviving old disputes. I was guilty of inappropriate behavior at one time myself. I like to think I learned from past mistakes and moved on.

    Anyway, my point is, there is still a lot to be learned here, but I think the forum as a whole is tired of the bickering. It certainly has grown old for me.

    I hope things improve going forward.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    I agree Hannibal. I just wanted to show people you can shoot traditionally lubed and checked boolits at a high velocity in a 1:10 twist barrel with some degree of accuracy and even do it at some distance.

    The main point of my video was shooting long range. Not too much out there in YouTube land on the subject of shooting cast at 500 yards or beyond.
    This was my VERY FIRST TRY. I was pretty pleased with the results. I will try to improve on them.

    I sometimes feel I'm being told what was done wrong or could be done better. Okay. Possibly. Show me video proof on how you do it with better results than mine.
    I'm all ears. Talk is cheap. Let's see it.

    Until you can SHOW me you can at least do it as well as me, or better, don't tell me what to try next or how I'm doing it the wrong way.
    Just my 2 cents.
    Waco
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  15. #75
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    OK Waco here's one.....if you had to critique your rig/rest/skill what would you say is the main area for improvement?And having that isolated,do you have a plan for change?

  16. #76
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Shopdog. The rifle has a horrible long throat from the factory. Is what it is for now. You can see I'm just laying prone with a bipod and a rear bag for a rest.
    I will revisit the previous loads and see if the results are the same. I have cast up a batch of bullets of my own from a new NOE 30XCB mold. Ended up with like 500 keepers. Alloy was 15lbs cow, 6 1/2lbs lino, and 1/2lb 63/37 (Sn/Pb) bar stock.
    These should be ready to shoot in about three more weeks.
    I hope these do at least as well as the boolits that were donated to me by RunFiveRun.
    From there. a little more of the IMR4831 and try to up the speed a bit. Play with COAL to try and shrink group size.
    Possibly move to a faster powder to gain more speed if needed and toughen the alloy if necessary.
    The current batch of bullets cast(they were water dropped BTW) all weigh between 162-163gr and have been sorted out to +/- 0
    That is my plan anyway and I will have new video and posts to come in the near future.
    Walter
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  17. #77
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Do you have any way to test the hardness of your alloy? (BHN)?

    I've experimented a bit both with age hardening and water-dropping. Sometimes the results were not what I expected.

    Also, I had a .223/5.56 bolt action that refused to perform consistently. It had a throat that was surprisingly long as well. I went through the trouble of setting the barrel back 3 threads and recutting the chamber and saw no improvement on the target. It shot considerably worse than yours to begin with, though. Turned out the barrel had a different issue.

    Just a couple of thoughts.
    Last edited by Hannibal; 02-23-2018 at 10:31 PM.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    I use pencils to test BHN. I was told by R5R these should be in the 18bhn range IIRC.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

  19. #79
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Ok. I'm not famaliar with the use of pencils, but I've read about it a bit on here. The only reason I brought it up is I have found it to be important to keep track of things and only change one thing at a time. I get confused and wind up wasting time and getting discouraged otherwise.

    YMMV.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Oh I hear ya. The first thing I’ll load with my bullets is the same load I used with R5R’s bullets.
    I need to see if mine will at least keep up with his. I have high hopes because it’s his alloy recipe....
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

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