Making that Bullet Collator

[AR-Bossman]

Hey Mike, I don't know how much you can share, or if you even want to be bothered, but...

Just wondering what part of the project they are claiming is covered by intellectual property rights? Do they own a patent on part/all of the design?

No worries if you can't respond, but I'm sure there are quite a few of us that are more than a little bit curious.

Here's the patent

US8661959B2

I can't seem to add a link to this site for some reason. So google that number.

Take a read through that tech/legal jargon. Looks like any system that uses a ramp to re-orientate the bullet is gonna get hammered.

[Phlier]

Here's the patent

US8661959B2

I can't seem to add a link to this site for some reason. So google that number.

Take a read through that tech/legal jargon. Looks like any system that uses a ramp to re-orientate the bullet is gonna get hammered.

Great work finding that, thanks!

I just read recently where patents can be challenged, based on whether or not the design is "obvious." Since a very similar mechanism is in use for brass collating, it seems like a case could be made, should someone actually want to challenge the patent, or defend their usage of such a system in their own design....

So I'll just leave this here...

[AR-Bossman]

Great work finding that, thanks!

I just read recently where patents can be challenged, based on whether or not the design is "obvious." Since a very similar mechanism is in use for brass collating, it seems like a case could be made, should someone actually want to challenge the patent, or defend their usage of such a system in their own design....

So I'll just leave this here...

I did a quick search an found this... and this is why people don't fight stuff like this...


A rough ballpark estimate of the costs of an inter partes review is approximately $300K to $600K. That is by no means cheap, but may still be considered a bargain compared to the costs of defending a patent infringement litigation in federal court which could easily reach $1-4 million or more. If an IPR is instituted, USPTO fees alone start at $23,000.

In view of these six-figure costs, it makes a great deal of sense to invest in thorough prior art searching.

Federal court judges have generally been favorable to staying, or suspending, a pending patent lawsuit to wait for the outcome an IPR which concludes within 1 year from the date of institution. Therefore, patent infringement defendants can defer hefty litigation costs, particularly those associated with litigation discovery, while contesting the validity of the patent-in-suit before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) at the USPTO.

[AR-Bossman]

Also here is a post from Karl Bibb's Facebook. He was authorized by AmmoMike to use the design and print these for people who didn't have printers or the $450 to buy the MBF

So here is the reply I got after telling him I was quitting:

Mr. Bibb,
I thank you for your quick response and for taking corrective action.
My lawyer requires a letter from you, stating that you will immediately stop selling any Bulletfeeder design that infringes on our US patents. I need that letter on your letterhead, signed and dated.
You can read the patents, they are available. your product currently infringes on many aspects of the patent, noticeably the way the bullet is orientated and outputted from the collator.
Saul Kirsch
General Manager
Double-Alpha Academy B.V.

[Anuccite]

It's tough to argue that DAA doesn't want people being able to buy a knockoff, But I'm not going to stop using mine, and I can't blame anyone for buying a 3D printer and printing their own.

Someone will always have the files, and aside from the motor holes, the basic 3d Design has not changed.

[HATCH]

This only applies to those people that are selling the printed units.

Thingy verse is just being overly protective as they don’t want the hassle.
There is no restriction on you printing this up and using it for your personal use.



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[Phlier]

I did a quick search an found this... and this is why people don't fight stuff like this...


A rough ballpark estimate of the costs of an inter partes review is approximately $300K to $600K. That is by no means cheap, but may still be considered a bargain compared to the costs of defending a patent infringement litigation in federal court which could easily reach $1-4 million or more. If an IPR is instituted, USPTO fees alone start at $23,000.

In view of these six-figure costs, it makes a great deal of sense to invest in thorough prior art searching.

Federal court judges have generally been favorable to staying, or suspending, a pending patent lawsuit to wait for the outcome an IPR which concludes within 1 year from the date of institution. Therefore, patent infringement defendants can defer hefty litigation costs, particularly those associated with litigation discovery, while contesting the validity of the patent-in-suit before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) at the USPTO.

It sure seems to me that the collators that have been used for decades to collate brass would qualify as "prior art" and the new design being "obvious" based on that prior art, but of course that's not for me to decide.

Seems like this shouldn't have been issued a patent in the first place. But... thread drift. I'll just leave it alone from here out and wish both Karl and AmmoMike83 the best. Thank you both for helping to make bullet feeders available to those that otherwise couldn't afford it.

My 3D printer won't get here until mid January at the earliest, but I'll be sure and update the thread along the way as the build progresses, and hopefully be able to provide links to alternative parts now that DAA has shutoff the pipeline.

Through PM's, I've discovered that I might not have the very latest version of the project files. As I have no way of printing them at the moment, I can't give any information on if they are: current, working, what other parts you need, etc.

[HATCH]

I know for a fact that someone else has the source for the motors and all the other MBF type parts.
I am just lucky enough to have purchased two sets of everything early on.
Good luck


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[jmorris]

The Dayton 2L007 (8.8 RPM), 2L008 (12 RPM) and 2L009 (17 RPM) are the same dimensions as the MBF motor. They likely got a cheaper knock off though because the MBF motors are about half price even after their markup.

[Phlier]

I know for a fact that someone else has the source for the motors and all the other MBF type parts.

Well, hopefully that "someone" will chime in with that very helpful piece of info.

The Dayton 2L007 (8.8 RPM), 2L008 (12 RPM) and 2L009 (17 RPM) are the same dimensions as the MBF motor. They likely got a cheaper knock off though because the MBF motors are about half price even after their markup.

Thanks!

Edit: Looks like all of those Dayton motors are discontinued. Still possible to find them new, albeit at a pretty stiff price. There's a few re-built ones to be had at cheaper prices, though.

[pastera]

I 3d printed a support to hold the shaft level in a drill press, cross drilled and pressed in a roll pin.
Motor I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KTZXYS0
That motor is not available but these are very similar:
https://www.amazon.com/Greartisan-El.../dp/B072N867G3
https://www.amazon.com/LMioEtool-Tor.../dp/B07PVCDB5N

Roll pin:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006MKBXSA
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006MKBXSA

Making a feeder that doesn't rely on the Mr bullet turning ramp could also be done if there is enough interest - I doubt the method RCBS, Hornady, et al use is under patent

[jmorris]

Edit: Looks like all of those Dayton motors are discontinued. Still possible to find them new, albeit at a pretty stiff price. There's a few re-built ones to be had at cheaper prices, though.

Granger looks to have changed things, looks like Zoro has as well, where I always got them. Zoro was always quite a bit cheaper but looks to be even more expensive with Walmart being $10 less. I don’t know, I do have a few cases of the Dayton’s in the shop because that’s also the ones I use on my annealing machines.

In any case the new item numbers are.

52JE51 Is the one that is the 2L008

52JE50 is the 8.8

52JE52 is the 17 rpm one

[marcolelectro]

By the way it's been nice to have some news from Mike.

[6bg6ga]

I sincerely doubt that MBF is going to go after the common guy making a bullet feeder in his garage. The statements by MBF's general manager are pretty broad and hard to back up more of a scare tactic in my opinion. To be blunt here if I want to get/make a copy I will do so without any worry about MBF coming after me.

[HATCH]

I am just gonna leave this right here.......


https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...?tracelog=null


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[OldManJ]

Hatch, is it ok if I attach the .zip archive of the files that were current on Thingiverse as of November 4 to a post in this thread?

I don't see that we'd run into a legality problem, as these are open source licensed files that were freely available to redistribute (and modify) under that license.

I've been getting quite a few PM's for the files, and was just thinking this would be a better way for guys that need the files to get them.

Did these files get put out somewhere? I just got my 750xl and was going to make this.

[Phlier]

Did these files get put out somewhere? I just got my 750xl and was going to make this.

I just responded to your PM. Check the email address that you sent to me... you should have an email with instructions for downloading the file.

To everyone else that has sent me PM's requesting access...

I think that I'm caught up. If you sent me a PM requesting the file and you haven't gotten a response, let me know.

New requests for the file might have to wait a few days, as the holidays have got me a bit busy. So if you send me a request for access, give me a few days to respond.

[jmorris]

I am just gonna leave this right here.......


https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...?tracelog=null


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Supply Ability
Supply Ability:
30000 Piece/Pieces per Day

That’s pretty impressive.

[HATCH]

Chinese state run factory


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[jmorris]

Still pretty impressive.

By my math there is 24 hours in a day x 60 minutes in an hour, = 1440 minutes a day x 60 = 86,400 seconds, in a day / by 30,000 units = 1 gear motor ready to go every 2.88 seconds.