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Thread: Making that Bullet Collator

  1. #3481
    Boolit Master TylerR's Avatar
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    GWS why not use the wiring diagram I created for using a relay with the proximity sensor? It is in the manual.
    Last edited by TylerR; 01-23-2021 at 10:24 AM.

  2. #3482
    Boolit Master GWS's Avatar
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    I know Tyler......I even copied it on paper. So now I just have an off on switch instead of the speed control.....one wire in and one wire out......not at all like the two wires in and two wires out on the diagram....ought to be simpler....doh.
    Last edited by GWS; 01-23-2021 at 10:25 AM.

  3. #3483
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    The only thing you need know about a relay is that it is a simple switch. It turns on or off based on whether a small current has been applied or not. The current needed to switch it is very low. But the switch side can handle a large current. So basically you are turning a high current circuit on or off using a very low current circuit. Hope that helps.

  4. #3484
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    That finally makes some sense, thank you. So, I can just tie the negative-out on the relay, directly to the motor positive and the power supply negative to the negative motor lead, with my on/off switch between (on that negative wire). I knew it had to be easier than I was making it....late hour last night....

  5. #3485
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    Yes. If you take another look at my diagram you will see a red wire coming out of the “negative” out terminal of the relay and connecting to the positive in for the speed controller. Because really what the relay is doing is creating continuity for the positive lead.

  6. #3486
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    Just to be clear. If by on off switch you mean the proximity sensor then it needs to be feeding the negative side of the relay in if it’s NPN or the positive side of the relay in if it’s PNP. Study my diagram some more and it should make sense. Also notice that the thin lines represent the low current circuit that travels through the proximity sensor. The thicker lines are the higher current circuit.

  7. #3487
    Boolit Master GWS's Avatar
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    No just a single throw on/off, since with the 5volt p.s. it's slow enough to not need a speed control for the rife brass I'm using it for at the moment.

    That said, I just ordered another speed control, but this one is just speed control not a switched speed control. Covering my bases. ;_

    What I didn't like about the other speed control is that you had to set it just so every time you turn it on. Separating the on/off makes it so I can leave the speed control alone, and just turn the collator power on. But the setup without the s.c. will work fine and maybe I'll use the new one coming or not....depends on if I need it for other uses.......

    This is what I just ordered.....

    Attachment 275908

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    More expensive than the old one, but I don't want the power switch.....I think it was too weak.
    Last edited by GWS; 01-23-2021 at 11:28 AM.

  8. #3488
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    i been following this thread for a while and just felt the need to assist where i can

    as far as the speed controller's there are 2 different types the first (the ones pictured in this thread) is a potentiometer type the other is a PWM type

    the potentiometer type is a variable resistor that cuts voltage by increasing resistance ... this slows the motor but also cuts the torque on the motor

    the PWM type is a pulse width modulator this one does not cut the voltage what it does is completely cut power for a fraction of a second to slow the rpm. basically think of a wave on the ocean the peaks are full voltage thats and the luls are the no power ... so the faster (or closer together) the peaks are the faster the motor will turn the slower the peaks are (farther appart) the slower the motor will turn ... but at all times the voltage to the motors is full voltage so full torque is still available at lower speeds

    hopefully that helps when your sourcing the controllers ... basically the bigger motors will be fine with the potentiometer types but the small jgy motors do better with a pwm due to low torque in the first place

    i may not be precise in my wording above but i haven't used my electronics degree in 25 years soo ...

    i have 4 of these feeders going now one version pre 1.27 on a dillon 650, one version 1.27 on another dillon 650 , 2 version 1.35 on a lee apps, and i'm printing a 1.36 now just because lol
    before i found this i was modifying the RVB feeder in all the same ways you guys have been doing here mainly because it was the only one i could get the f3d files for, did one of the original ammomike ones but it wasn't till the scad plate generator that it became a viable option

    but damn you guys do good work please keep it up and i'd love to assist where i can

  9. #3489
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    Quote Originally Posted by impala68 View Post
    ..........potentiometer type the other is a PWM type.......

    i may not be precise in my wording above but i haven't used my electronics degree in 25 years soo ... I'd love to assist where i can
    I knew there had to be an Electronics guy out there listening! Please join in whenever you want. Bet you can tell me if I'm adding wood to my break everything fire by lowering the Power Supply voltage for to slow it down and less torque for that monster motor is a blessing.

    Also thanks for the terms to intelligently look for a PWM type for my little "Mikes" running the little motor. So far it works with the one Anuccite posted a few posts above.....but for how long? That's another question. Iffy quality is one thing....misusing the product is another......and we were lacking in the expertise department electronically. Thanks for the information!

    Interesting........I just looked and noticed for the first time that the little switchless speed control I just ordered (link in my last post), turns out IS a PWM type......should have order a couple more! Heck I didn't know what PWM was.....
    Last edited by GWS; 01-23-2021 at 01:56 PM.

  10. #3490
    Boolit Master TylerR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by impala68 View Post
    i been following this thread for a while and just felt the need to assist where i can

    as far as the speed controller's there are 2 different types the first (the ones pictured in this thread) is a potentiometer type the other is a PWM type

    the potentiometer type is a variable resistor that cuts voltage by increasing resistance ... this slows the motor but also cuts the torque on the motor

    the PWM type is a pulse width modulator this one does not cut the voltage what it does is completely cut power for a fraction of a second to slow the rpm. basically think of a wave on the ocean the peaks are full voltage thats and the luls are the no power ... so the faster (or closer together) the peaks are the faster the motor will turn the slower the peaks are (farther appart) the slower the motor will turn ... but at all times the voltage to the motors is full voltage so full torque is still available at lower speeds

    hopefully that helps when your sourcing the controllers ... basically the bigger motors will be fine with the potentiometer types but the small jgy motors do better with a pwm due to low torque in the first place

    i may not be precise in my wording above but i haven't used my electronics degree in 25 years soo ...

    i have 4 of these feeders going now one version pre 1.27 on a dillon 650, one version 1.27 on another dillon 650 , 2 version 1.35 on a lee apps, and i'm printing a 1.36 now just because lol
    before i found this i was modifying the RVB feeder in all the same ways you guys have been doing here mainly because it was the only one i could get the f3d files for, did one of the original ammomike ones but it wasn't till the scad plate generator that it became a viable option

    but damn you guys do good work please keep it up and i'd love to assist where i can
    Thank you Impala68. That is great info, very helpful.

    It's funny you explained the torque difference, and now have me wondering, because even with the full sized motor I have has never damaged a plate when it jams. The motor just stops until I shut it off. So many other people say their motor destroys it on a jam.
    Last edited by TylerR; 01-23-2021 at 03:12 PM.

  11. #3491
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    The Overture Pla+ blue is looking good.. I guess they change the name to PLA Pro now.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 63311533561-D5-F195-C8-748-D-4022-A3-C1-5-AAEC82811-EA.jpg  

  12. #3492
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    So I got my hands on a PR18-14DN2 (not the PRD18-14DN2) but is NPN NC M18 with 8mm sensing, so fits the bill. But not sure anyone had issues with it sensing through the flat spot of the drop tubes? All mine are PETG and seem to not sense. If I put one in front works fine. So my question is perhaps too many walls or thickness of infill make a difference on those? Going to print a new one and see. But definitely can see the proximity sensor being so much easier

  13. #3493
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerR View Post
    Thank you Impala68. That is great info, very helpful.

    It's funny you explained the torque difference, and now have me wondering, because even with the full sized motor I have has never damaged a plate when it jams. The motor just stops until I shut it off. So many other people say their motor destroys it on a jam.
    Tyler, Speaking of jams destroying the motor here are a few of my experiences:

    I am using the Dayton Motor, at first I had drilled and put a 3/8 roll pin in the shaft and used your stock #2 plate. The diameter of the motor shaft on my motor is 8MM on the dot and the #2 plate is 10.1 (making an assumption based off of the number listed in the manual), because there is a 2mm difference there was some play in the plate when it was positioned on the shaft. I has come occasional issues with jams and I'm not sure if it was due to the plate being loose or what. At one point the plate had jammed and was STUCK, ultimately the roll pin had dug into the side of the plate. I have since abandoned that plate.

    I created a new plate with a hex adapter and printed a new plate. When I created the plate I screwed up and did not put the right height for rifle bullets but started testing it anyway while I waited for the new plate to print out. It seemed that with the plate being properly centered and not having the extra play like the pinned shaft did everything worked a little better. Since the plate was very short and the hex adapter was only 1/2-3/5 of the way inside of the plate the first jam stripped out the hole.

    Que the 3rd plate - This one I made the proper height so the hex adapter was seated all the way inside the plate. This one worked really well and only had a few bullets go in upside down but did have a few hangups. I did end up having it get stuck pretty good a couple times and at one point the hex adapter started slipping on the shaft. I pulled everything off and found that the set screw may have backed out a bit and ripped itself out of the adapter and galled up the motor shaft pretty good.

    It seems these motors are pretty powerful. lol

    So, currently I have another plate on the printer, going back to the pinned shaft. This one I made with a 8.1mm hole diameter instead of the 10.1 to make sure the plate is centered with less slop and I can open the hole up bigger with a drill bit if needed. I also included 4 walls to try to help with the roll pin not digging in like the first plate.

  14. #3494
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike111 View Post

    I am using the Dayton Motor, at first I had drilled and put a 3/8 roll pin in the shaft and used your stock #2 plate. The diameter of the motor shaft on my motor is 8MM on the dot and the #2 plate is 10.1 (making an assumption based off of the number listed in the manual), because there is a 2mm difference there was some play in the plate when it was positioned on the shaft. I has come occasional issues with jams and I'm not sure if it was due to the plate being loose or what. At one point the plate had jammed and was STUCK, ultimately the roll pin had dug into the side of the plate. I have since abandoned that plate
    [....]

    So, currently I have another plate on the printer, going back to the pinned shaft. This one I made with a 8.1mm hole diameter instead of the 10.1 to make sure the plate is centered with less slop and I can open the hole up bigger with a drill bit if needed. I also included 4 walls to try to help with the roll pin not digging in like the first plate.
    I also have the same Dayton motors and drilled and dropped a pin in. I used the values on the plates for the shaft. Also noticed they were much looser as you did without adjusting them:

    // my dayton shaft
    shaft_hole=8.2;
    shaft_slot_length=26;
    shaft_slot_width=4.5;

    I used a 1/8 1" long pin.

  15. #3495
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnpb View Post
    I also have the same Dayton motors and drilled and dropped a pin in. I used the values on the plates for the shaft. Also noticed they were much looser as you did without adjusting them:

    // my dayton shaft
    shaft_hole=8.2;
    shaft_slot_length=26;
    shaft_slot_width=4.5;

    I used a 1/8 1" long pin.
    I believe I am using a 1/8" pin as well, I don't remember the length but it fit in the #2 plate. This is what I have on the printer now:

    // SHAFT OPTIONS (STANDARD)
    shaft_hole=8.1; //shaft hole
    shaft_slot_length=29;
    shaft_slot_width=4.0;

    The shaft on my motor measures 8mm exactly, I hope that it doesn't get stuck on the shaft bit I figured I could drill it out if its too small. I did drill the pin hole a little crooked so its a little off center, I hope it fits still. If not, I'll have to make the slot width a little wider and re-print. haha

    Do those settings work well for you?

  16. #3496
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike111 View Post
    I believe I am using a 1/8" pin as well, I don't remember the length but it fit in the #2 plate. This is what I have on the printer now:

    // SHAFT OPTIONS (STANDARD)
    shaft_hole=8.1; //shaft hole
    shaft_slot_length=29;
    shaft_slot_width=4.0;

    The shaft on my motor measures 8mm exactly, I hope that it doesn't get stuck on the shaft bit I figured I could drill it out if its too small. I did drill the pin hole a little crooked so its a little off center, I hope it fits still. If not, I'll have to make the slot width a little wider and re-print. haha

    Do those settings work well for you?
    They do. I wanted a little room to pull plates off if they didn't have a handle. But it tracks well. I wouldn't worry too much on how perfect the hole is centered since it should self-center around the 8mm shaft with the wings as just pushers. Quick vid for you on how they fit.


  17. #3497
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnpb View Post
    They do. I wanted a little room to pull plates off if they didn't have a handle. But it tracks well. I wouldn't worry too much on how perfect the hole is centered since it should self-center around the 8mm shaft with the wings as just pushers. Quick vid for you on how they fit.

    That makes sense, I think I’m going to put a handle on the plates just for ease of removal once I get everything working properly.

    I’m not overly concerned with the hole position, just that it’s slightly crooked and hoping I didn’t make the slot width too narrow and not fitting on the plate.

    I’ve also thought about drilling two holes in the shaft if I do it again. But we’ll see how it works this way first.

  18. #3498
    Boolit Master GWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerR View Post
    Thank you Impala68. That is great info, very helpful.

    It's funny you explained the torque difference, and now have me wondering, because even with the full sized motor I have has never damaged a plate when it jams. The motor just stops until I shut it off. So many other people say their motor destroys it on a jam.
    Maybe the Dayton has more torque than the one you use. I haven't had total destruction like some had using the pin in the shaft, but I had it round the inside of the Hex plate for .223 brass.

    That said tonight I hooked up the relay temporarily, the prox, the on/off toggle switch(thank you for the insight on the relay) using the 5 volt power supply on my high speed 30RPM 12volt Dayton [no speed control needed], the result was astoundingly perfect.

    The speed and torque was tamed totally, and it drops 308 brass without binding except where the brass tries to piggyback. (but that's an easy fix) When it does piggyback it can cause the brass in the hole under it, when it tries to upend and fall, to bind. But still when it does bind it just stops....no more destructive rounding. And even at 5 volts the prox switch works every time. So happy tonight. I'll work on a vid a little later.

    So lowering the voltage DOES reduce the speed AND torque. When you need that....it's cool. Happily 5 volt wall warts are as common as computers.....not to mention one could actually use an old computer power supply's 5 volt lead.

    To others: Other slower Daytons may not go fast enough on 5 volts....so if yours is already slow this isn't for you.



    This is .308.....the last pause was the proximity switch shutting it off.....I was catching brass under the sensor and I got too close and stopped the collator on the last case. I lowered my hand and it started again. So everything's working great.... just the right speed with no speed control.

    Next video shows the jam caused by another case piggybacking.......pretty sure it's just the angle. Not enough angle to keep cases at the bottom?



    Forgot and held my hand too close under again....proximity sensor stopped it again on the last when the case backed up....just like it's supposed to.

    I didn't turn off the switch for a reason....to demonstrate that it didn't have the torque to wreck the plate while I cleared it. (guess you figured out you're looking through my mirror. )

    Only question now is how will it work full of cases????? and for .308 maybe I'll want to print the extender......
    Last edited by GWS; 01-24-2021 at 02:08 AM.

  19. #3499
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    Has anyone thought of adding a clutch to the plates like Hornady does?


  20. #3500
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump_rrr View Post
    Has anyone thought of adding a clutch to the plates like Hornady does?

    I thought about it but don’t know how to go about it or if it would even solve the problem. I have them on my Dillon casefeed plates but I’m not aware of how they function.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
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