"Originally Posted by kens
"
While I don't know anyone who was actually there, the general concesus, including this quote from a guns & ammo rag, is that the original load was 40 grains 2f, later reduced to 30 by the army for more controlable shooting, and then changed to 3f to regain velocity.
"In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"
Can it be done, sure. Is it optimal? I doubt it. In a Ruger I doubt anything remarkable would happen.
"In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'
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can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?
Sure, one time
I'm really just kidding, don't try it.
Remember, You don't need a parachute to skydive but you do need a parachute to skydive twice.
Eh, sounds kinda f'y to me.
But seriously, I've read reports about percussion revolver cartridges that were produced with what dang near amounted to fast burn flash powder. Like maybe they did that because the pointy projectiles being used to get through layers of outdoor wear were long enough to take up a whole lot of powder space, so they used a smaller amount of faster burning powder. So maybe black powder cartridge arms could also be made to work OK with smaller amounts of faster burning powder... but then there would be air space in the case...
Reckon I know that I don't know.
I remember reading that Elmer Keith once blew the loading gate off a Colt SA using the old load of 40 grains of black powder in a Colt 45. He did say it was a balloon head case but I don't think he mentioned whether the powder was FFF or not. The point being, Many guns have been damaged using black powder. I saw it happen several times in over thirty years of muzzle loading competition. It ain't talcum powder.
A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN
Elmer's "accident" was caused from him milling the top driving band off of a 45-90 mould and then sized it down to make a heavy for caliber 45 colt bullet.
I know there is no reason to challenge "good sense" so we see a lot of internet parroting being shared with this thread..... for good reason because why risk your eyesight or a good revolver?.
I have read that many company's Cap&Ball paper cartridges, were in fact loaded with fine grain "Pistol" powder that we now call 4ffff today.
I have burnt close to a full 25lb case (maybe 2?) of Graphs 4ffff through my cap&balls and can safely say that the 4f is superior in EVERY way in a Remington58 Pietta.
FWIW, my 45colt conversion cylinder load in the Rem58 is 16gr 2f Olde E and a 38special case of CreamOWheat behind a 155gr EPP-UG bullet for 765fps and deadly accuracy. It's a great "woods" round that doesn't hurt your ears if you want to take a shot or 2 at targets of opportunity.
I shot this load today at a 4ft floating log down in the pond at around 300 yards away. First shot didn't quite make the water, so I raised the rest of the front site and hit the edge of the log on the second shot!
A full 45colt case of 2f OE will send the little epp-ug pill out of the barrel at 1205 fps!! But don't plan on hitting much with this load..LOL
I spoke with the the ballistics tech from Western about 4f in the C&B pistols and it is completely safe to use. BUT when the powder column reaches 3 inches in length their testing proved that 4f powder became VERY erratic!!!,, Fully capable of blowing even a heavy Sharps or Hawken barrel wide open!
Good luck and BE SAFE!!! It's sure a major buzz-kill when things go south for foolish risks.
Last edited by freedom475; 02-10-2018 at 09:26 PM.
Case full, and compressed probably not. Enough to fill the case to the base of the bullet will likely be the best bet.
In the meantime find a can of 3 or 2f.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Swiss calls it Null-B. Here's a comparison of the grain (mesh) sizes ...They even have more F's beyond the FFFFG
Swiss FFFFg
30 Mesh - Trace Hold
40 Mesh - 68.30% Hold
50 Mesh - 28.9% Hold
60 Mesh - 1.56% Hold
70 Mesh - Trace Hold
Swiss Null-B
1.096 - Density
40 Mesh - Trace Hold
50 Mesh - Trace Hold
60 Mesh - Trace Hold
70 Mesh - Pass
80 Mesh - 99.9% Hold
I use Swiss Null-B to charge 22LR's reloads. 4.5gr yields a 1030 fps velocity
Regards
John
I would like to see pressure tests.
Larry, are you out there?
I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests.
Find one of the Lyman Blackpowder Handbooks , the edition before Fadala got involved. They have 4 f data for most of the capnball revolvers listed.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Yes. Still in the cartridge revolver...... I'm not sure enough to try it with out some pressure tested data to go by. 4F Swiss and 4F Elephant would have very different pressures too.
Chill Wills
Chills if you look on the next page they ran Goex 3 and 4f with the bullet, max charge of 28 gr of each, the 3f produced 861 fps with 8820 lup, 4f; 885 fps, with 8480 lup.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
That 4F lower velocity and pressure is a head scratchier for sure.
I posted the page picture I did because it was already uploaded here. This subject makes the rounds regularly.
OT
Did you make the silhouette match today? We did not go. My son had to get caught up with school and the roads this afternoon turned out to be nothing I want to drive on around these parts.
No I didn't even try, roads to slick, and the temps here were bitter cold. Might try this next Saturday tho, need to give that Hepburn a good run to see if the triggers are going to hold up.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Yes, I'm out here. I don't have any 4F to test and not sure how I'd go about it safely.........more cogitation is in order.......
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
anyone have an Encore 45Colt barrel? If I had one I'd lend it to you, Larry.
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
Not saying one way or the other about whether it's safe or not because my opinion is just that, an opinion, but years ago I shot 4F in a Ruger Old Army (a lot of it!) because the dealer said it was made for it and I didn't know any better at the time. In fact except for the one LB of Pyrodex that came with the pistol when I bought it 4F was mostly what I shot in it, I did use some 3F I had for my 45 TC rifle but very little of it. At the time the reasoning was that since the Old Army was based on the Black Hawk it should easily handle any pressures generated by BP and the 4F should give a boost to performance. I have learned a lot since those days and no longer "assume" such things but still the 4F shot just fine with no problems at all, actually I saw little improvement in performance and could hardly tell the difference between the 4F and 3F as far as recoil or muzzle blast.
Again I am NOT saying it is safe but I saw no problems at all with it.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
Let's start from the beginning: all final grades of black powder come out of the same mill formulation > then to the press cake > then broken up > then through the sieves for specific grading based on the the size of the screens > then polished!I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests.
Therefore, A FFFFg is the same powder as a Fg - FFg - FFFg. The only difference is that FFFFg will have a faster burn rate due to the smaller grain size with a immaterial increase in fps than the burn rate of the other grades of powder
So don't sweat the small stuff about pressure because BP is not nitroglycerine based powder like smokeless powders with an increase of powder charge = greater pressure curve. Black powder is a weak powder!
Regards
John
Hi, im new to BP cartridges too so finding this very interesting. My thoughts on this are as follows..... lets take a 45-100, designed to take 100G by Vol of powder to give the needs push, to fill the case so theres no air space 2f was used and a matching measure setting. Now if we use 1f we no long have 100GbV in the case if we use the 2f measure it would need compressing to get it all in. Now if we did the same with 4f we go the other way, will fill much less of the case and so give air space. Hope that make some kinda sense... is it safe , I don't know, but not sure I want to find out,,,,,,, but hey that 4f makes great firecrackers
friend of mine runs FFFF in a 357 magnum case through a colt lightning repro - a nice solid load no problems - 26 grains I think . 158 grain LEE boolit on top
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