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Thread: can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

    it's all i have in black... well can you?

    case full & compressed?

  2. #2
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    Not safe. The pressure spike is too quick.

    You might get away with it but is "might" worth it?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    but isn't that what they did with antique guns before smokeless?

    hickock45 did it with 4fg in a glock and it would barely eject ...he said 3fg wouldn't cycle it.
    800 fps at best.

    so how much more pressure would there be in a modern ruger blackhawk?

  4. #4
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    Original load for 45 colt was usually 40 grains of 2f. 4f will burn much faster and allow much more powder in the case. Sounds iffy to me.
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  5. #5
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    You asked, I answered. After that, it's up to you.

    3Fg subs like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are available at the likes of Cabela's. Powder Inc. Buffalo Arms, and Grafs will all ship black powder.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    You asked, I answered. After that, it's up to you.

    3Fg subs like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are available at the likes of Cabela's. Powder Inc. Buffalo Arms, and Grafs will all ship black powder.
    no smug answer intended...but i'd like a mixed review not just one.

    somebody here is an expert and has tried and done this ...this is who my post is for.

  7. #7
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    In a word NOPE

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
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    no.......................

  9. #9
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    What gun?
    black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
    I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
    I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
    To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
    FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
    Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
    Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
    the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Boogieman's Avatar
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    Didn't Ruger ok 4f in the Old Army? The Lyman Black powder Handbook listed loads for C&B revolvers using 4f In an 1860 Army a cylinder full , 28gr. ,under a 155gr. bullet pressure was 8,480 LUP
    The 3 people a man must be able to trust completely are his gunsmith his doctor & his preacher ..,his gunsmith for his short term health ,his doctor for long term health ,and his preacher incase one of the others mess up.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozeppa View Post
    so how much more pressure would there be in a modern ruger blackhawk?
    in my op.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy vrh's Avatar
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    I have shot BP rifles and pistols for more than 40 yrs. I stay to the old list of 4F priming, 3F for pistols and some small caliber rifles, 2F for 50 cal and above. 1F for cannons.
    Now I have shot 3F in my 54 cal rifle. I did that by reducing my normal 2F load by 10 %.
    Da Okie/ Now known as Vearl

  13. #13
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    No.

    There has always been an admonishment from days of old to use 4f for priming only (flintlocks) as it is dangerous to use in MLs or BP cartridges. I would suggest heeding that old warning.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  14. #14
    Boolit Master quail4jake's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of dogma but what benefit comes from this risk? The old "rule" is never use FFFFg in the breech.

  15. #15
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    Larry:

    I have always heard the same thing about 4f and it seems to be "common knowledge" but has anyone ever pressure tested to determine just what pressure 4f would actually produce?

    I have searched the internet for that information without success.

    You have pressure testing equipment. Would you consider testing a cartridge loaded with 4f starting light then working up to see just what pressure is generated and if it does in fact produce dangerously high pressure?

    I ask because I have read and been told that a person cannot load enough BP into a muzzleloader to cause it to blow up because not enough of the powder could burn to generate enough pressure to blow up the barrel. This seemed to be "common knowledge" when I started shooting muzzleloaders though I certainly have not tried to see what happens.

    I do have a copy of The Complete Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala and in his "safety" section he did test a barrel with large loads of BP and was not successful in destroying the barrel until he loaded two Minies over a large charge of BP with an air gap between powder and Minies.

    So it went like this:

    - test gun built by Dale Story
    - barrel of drawn steel
    - .58 caliber barrel 1" across the flats and 36" long with 1:72" twist
    - rifling 0.010" deep with groove to groove measurement of 0.60" leaving 0.020" barrel wall at the flats

    He worked his way up to a charge of 500 grs. FFFg of BP with three 600 gr. Minies loaded (1,800 grs. total) with no measurable expansion in the barrel (mic'd after each test while working up).

    He finally tried a 400 gr. charge under two 600 gr. Minies separated from the powder with an air gap. That did it. He states the exploded barrel had a bulge at 19" from the breech but doesn't state what the air gap distance was (400 grs. of powder makes for a long column).

    Unfortunately he did not have pressure testing equipment so we do not know what pressure was generated as he worked up.

    So, in Sam Fadala's test he was unsuccessful in blowing up a relatively large bore barrel with relatively thin walls with a fine grade of BP under a payload of three bullets if loaded with bullets touching powder. This matches the "common knowledge" that was passed on to me and many others though it certainly isn't very scientific or definitive.

    I realize that 4f powder is finer than 3f and burns faster than 3f but just how much more pressure does it generate for a given charge under a given bullet weight compared to 3f? Lots of people run 3f powder in large bore muzzleloaders and cartridge guns with no ill effects even though 2f or f is recommended. .45-70 is a common cartridge that comes to mine and many load 3f in it with no problems.

    Anyway, just curious if anyone has ever tested the pressure differences so we get a definitive answer instead of "common knowledge".

    Longbow

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    Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFFG.

    http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powde...bturation.html
    Last edited by vzerone; 02-10-2018 at 01:34 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFG.

    http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powde...bturation.html
    3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.
    Charter Member #148

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.
    Thanks for pointing that out I meant FFFFG and edited it.

  19. #19
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    No problem, thought maybe you missed it.
    Charter Member #148

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    No problem, thought maybe you missed it.
    Yeah, too many F's. They even have more F's beyond the FFFFG.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check