high velocity with 311413 Squib Bullets in 308 Win AR10.

[Eutectic]

Phillip Sharpe wrote

Attachment 213654

Bruce

Reading Phil Sharpe is a lot like trying to get somewhere using a 'road map' full of mistakes. He is not the best source out there for sure!

Look again at the picture of the Squib..... WHY is the gas check shank SO LONG?? Allow me to answer as I've been at this game well over a half century. Many way back thought "bearing surface" of a cast bullet should be limited to prevent leading.... Old school..... Also it was a thought process that if a little lube is good a LOT is better! Some still think so but the guys getting the real groups go as lean as they can on lube without problems showing up. The long shank is helpful for these two theories.... BUT....

robert12345 states the following....."Lucky for us; the base flattens out, filling the throat," I agree this can take place..... When this 'Squib' base flattens in the original design how even and square is it at that point? Some think the gas check adds strength and it does some..... But by design, the Squib can exert a lot of leverage to the base to not collapse straight and square with the bullet centerline. Higher velocity and more pressure aggravate this and our targets show the bullet's flight is 'not happy'.

How do I know this?? I've shorted that L O N G shank to a more modern design. Gas check about .020" from bottom band. Accuracy at faster velocities improved.....

I have shot these full spitzer designs accurately but in general they are primadonnas for load development because of varying 'slump' as mentioned. Much better to use a semi-spitzer design if you think you need a better ballistic coefficient. Flat shooting at long range becomes more of a moot point if you know your trajectory.... especially scoped with these new adjustments that can quickly put you on at chosen ranges for a particular load.

Eutectic

[Gewehr-Guy]

Col. E H Harrison, writing articles for the NRA reloading handbooks, described the bullets failure at moderate to high velocity because of the bullet nose "slump", and had pictures of the recovered bullet with rifling deeply engraved on one side of the nose, and not touching the other side. Now when you look at the bullet, the upper lube groove looks way too deep , and materially weakens the bullets nose and its ability to remain centered during acceleration . I haven't tried them lately, but might try some in the Krag

[bruce drake]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ibb-Miller-Geb
The article that was mentioned in the first link with graphics.
https://books.google.com/books?id=gJ...page&q&f=false

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/temp/B&M2.pdf
https://castbulletassoc.org/download...20-%201929.pdf

The Squibb Bullet has been causing discussions and arguments in cast bullet shooting groups for almost a century it seems.
Keep the Lead hard and it should keep it accurate up to to 2150fps at a minimal.
I'm surprised that the 150 gr Spitzer mold #311414 doesn't cause more discussion as its nose is less supported than the 311413 design...

[bruce drake]

Control load 311291s on left loaded with same powder range as experimental 311413 bullets on the right.

[Forrest r]

Hate to say it but it's been at the back of a long list of things I've been wanting to test. I've always wanted to make a cutter for the 308w that is adjustable and would have the ability to cut the nose back on the cast bullets. Same bullet/same load & just cut the nose back doing ladder tests.

A bullet like the saeco #315 would be an excellent place to start. Always wanted to start with strait lino-type and keep re-testing using the same loads with softer alloys along with cutting the bullet's nose back at the grooves.

[bruce drake]

chop saw with a metal cutting blade could make those adjustments on the bullet length for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

you may be right in that alloy is just as important as the lube you use but in my opinion the biggest factor is the gun itself. Most guns are very forgiving with jacketed bullets. Not so much with cast. I can buy 4 identical ar10s or model 700 rems in 308 and maybe one out of 4 or even one out of the whole 8 are going to be good shooting cast bullet guns when pushed to the limit. Many people get frustrated when someone on the internet says they have great luck with X bullet or X load and its shoots like **** in there gun. Or even expect a load that shoots good out of Joes gun to shoot as well in there 308 even though its a different brand and a different twist barrel. Then look at the other big factor and that's time spend experimenting. I have absolute no doubt that smokes guns do just what he says they do but ask him how much time and how many rounds went down range to find the exact recipe that gun (not your gun) loved and ask him how many loads during that time were just miserable. take myself. I bought a lee 223 gas check mold casted up a bunch out of water dropped ww and pc coated them and used a load suggested on here that the guy was getting under 2 inch groups at a 100 yards with in his ar15. My gun at 50 yards was lucky to hit the paper every time. Now I have 4 other 223 ar15s I could have tried but that one is my most consistently accurate gun. Could likely be that its a 1-7 twist and I was overspinning them. Someone else might say that I tried it and it failed so its no good and nobody is going to get any different results them me. But I know better. I didn't have any more time to fool with the project and have enough 223 loaded with jacketed bullets that I could probably shoot every day for 10 years and not run out so I just blew it off. Smoke got it to work because he was willing to put in the time loading and shooting.

Humm....

Folks seem to think that the limiting factor in getting high velocity, ...with accuracy, when using cast bullets, ..is the lube.
Nope, it ain't the lube....
.
The limiting factor in high velocity, with accuracy, is the lead alloy.
Lead is soft, the push generated by the exploding gunpowder, ..is a heavy fist, of fast quick force !

That fist of explosive force, hits the bullet base first, and it hits the bullet's .......front ...last.
The base of the bullet, accelerates, before the point.
Lucky for us; the base flattens out, filling the throat, and the bullet's nose then slumps, filling the bore.

And the overall result is an accurate shot leaving the rifled barrel.
.
.
A pointed cast lead bullet has vastly more airspace around it's nose, "to slump" than a round nose bullet.
That is why pointed lead bullets are notorious for being inaccurate. ( They exit the muzzle bent at the point. )

To shoot a pointed lead bullet accurately, we must cast them very hard, then use very light charges of fast burning powder.
.
If accuracy at velocity is what we want, we are limited to round nose bullets, rather than pointed lead bullets.
.
A study of bullet lubes is fine, but if you want high velocity with cast bullets, and you wish to use a pointed bullet, then you need to cast the bullet a hell of a lot harder than we can at home, and/or, we need a propellant which gives the bullet a long slow push to high velocity.

We in our home work shops, do not have the technology to make bullets hard enough to make them shoot fast, and there are apparently no powders suitable for a long slow push needed for gentle launches to high velocity in cast bullets.
.
In the long run, unless technology changes, we are pretty much limited to 2200 fps.

[Eutectic]

I have a 3" benchtop lathe I've setup for bullet modification. Collets and precision stops make modifications quick and easy! All the molds I've designed on Accurate except one have had test bullets machined to test first.
Back to the squib, 311413, and its design..... I've modified it at the gascheck shank as already mentioned and shortened the nose to a 3/16" meplat. This leaves a 147gr bullet much improved!

Col. Harrison comment above about nose slumping to one side..... Why didn't it slump evenly? Think of that L O N G gas check shank starting the bullet off center........

Above 311413 mod pictured.

Eutectic

[bruce drake]

So you've modified the 413 to look like a LEE 308 FN

And the tail of the bullet should not impact the flight of the bullet unless its shot without a gas check or the gas check is sized down to the point you'd get blowby onto the bullet itself. In a lubed 311413 bullet that area in front of the gas check on the shank of the bullet gets filled with lube anyways so the seal at the base of the bullet should be good between the check and the lube.

[bruce drake]

I had to find a heavier 223 cast bullet than LEE's Bator 55gr bullet to have any accuracy in my 1-7" twist AR barrel also. I went with MiHec's 69gr mold and I actually developed groups again with that cartridge with lead bullets.

I will say that the BATOR works great in my 22-250 with its 1-14" twist though.

[bruce drake]

According to the Lead Alloy calculator, the 15lbs of 311413s that I have cast up are around 19 on the Brinnell Hardness Scale (84% lead, 10% Antimony, 6%Tin -- 10lbs of 10-1 and 5lbs of Roto-Metals Super Hard alloy) which puts it about in the middle of straight linotype and Lyman #2 alloy. And then bullets got PC coated, gas-checked and sized to .309 and then a second coat of PC placed over them for around .310" sizing before being loaded up for test runs.

[bruce drake]

And my other poly coated load for testing. LEE 200gr sized at .309 gas checked and two coats of PC. The other load is my regular 200 yard line NRA Highpower load for the AR10.

[Forrest r]

chop saw with a metal cutting blade could make those adjustments on the bullet length for you.

What I want to do is take some 1" al round stock and a set of 308 reamers and make a 308w chamber in the round stock and have a .311" hole in the end of it. Then it's a matter of setting the stop on the saw and cutting the bullets nose down on loaded rounds that are inserted in the al chambered round stock.

The real hold up is operator error. Namely I've misplaced the 308 reamers along with a couple other reamers and a bunch of molds. Got a 30cal ammo can laying around I can't find with the reamers and molds in it. About the time I buy a new set of reamers I'll find the ammo can.

[Hickok]

Bruce, the Lee 200 gr shots great out of my 700 Rem. with 32gr/IMR 4895, PCed, gas checked, sized .311" , and a dacron filler.

Last time at the range, 15 shots grouped 1.7" @ 100 yards. Velocity is about 2050 fps out of the 24" barrel with a 10 inch twist.

[Eutectic]

So you've modified the 413 to look like a LEE 308 FN

And the tail of the bullet should not impact the flight of the bullet unless its shot without a gas check or the gas check is sized down to the point you'd get blowby onto the bullet itself. In a lubed 311413 bullet that area in front of the gas check on the shank of the bullet gets filled with lube anyways so the seal at the base of the bullet should be good between the check and the lube.

I actually think that Lee bullet would be a better design Bruce?? But it's a speculation as I haven't shot it.

So your thinking that a little 1/16" width of soft copper or the lube on that extra shank leverage length will keep you straight? Maybe...... if the chamber/throat/alignment/dimensions are correct. But that's another maybe..... Bad enough problems can even push a base band over! Maybe why 75% of my cast bullet barrels have had throat work....... But why design an aggravation into your bullet??

I modified the 413 only for one reason.... A challenge! I made a positive statement to my 90 year old father that I could modify it to shoot a lot better. "That I'd like to see!" He said. But he got up and went to the garage.... He handed me a set of mold blocks for 413. I wouldn't modify them for a steady diet; nor would I design a mold for what you see. But it shot a lot better.

I have found fired bullets showing uneven engraving of the gascheck almost to the point of no engraving on one side.... Why is that? Way back before crimp-on gaschecks I have found gaschecks 30 or 40 feet out from the bench showing uneven engraving and at times a bending or striping appearance. Probably off a Squib bullet.... Many tried to get them to shoot back then.

Eutectic

[curator]

Lyman #311413 was one of my first bullet moulds, bought in the early 60s to shoot in my 1903 Springfield. I have struggled/played/experimented with it ever since and only occasionally get consistent accuracy past 1400 fps. Gun club members who knew I was a cast boolit experimenter gave me their unwanted moulds when they gave up on casting. At one time I had a dozen Lyman #311413 moulds. What I found was a large variation in measurements from one set of blocks to another. Using the same alloy (COWW+2%Sn) some moulds cast driving bands as large as .315, others as small as .306". Nose diameters varied from .295 to .303". Lyman's quality control obviously sucked back then!

In my experience, #311413 suffered from a too small in diameter nose that is also a bit on the long side and is not guided well by the rifling's lands. It also was made with a long, tapered gas check shank. This allowed gas checks to come off in flight creating fliers. The bullet LOOKS like it would be a great shooter but is not. People bought the bullet mould because it looked like the jacketed bullets that shot great. Possibly if we could cast from pure copper, #311413 would be a winner. Lyman's #311291 on the other hand is one of the easiest of cast bullets to get to shoot accurately in most .30 caliber rifles because its nose and gas check shanks are made correctly for the differences between how jacketed and cast bullets perform when fired.

[bruce drake]

Bruce, the Lee 200 gr shots great out of my 700 Rem. with 32gr/IMR 4895, PCed, gas checked, sized .311" , and a dacron filler.

Last time at the range, 15 shots grouped 1.7" @ 100 yards. Velocity is about 2050 fps out of the 24" barrel with a 10 inch twist.

Interesting on your velocity. I haven't run the load above through my chronometer yet but used the LEE Reduction formula for reducing velocity to meet the desired value. Current data has IMR4895 with a 200grain bullet at a max 43.2gr and an expected 2745fps. Reducing down to 2225fps gave me an even 38gr to drop thrown the measure. I may not even get 2225fps since I'm shooting this through a 20" AR barrel and not a longer bolt rifle barrel.

[bruce drake]

Well at this point, I won't know until they get shot and my current calendar means probably a few weeks before I can even get out to the range to test. I'm a gun crank. I experiment. This will be the one this year for me.

[bruce drake]

there are bullet designs with even longer unsupported noses that can get to be shot accurately. The 323366 and the 311414 molds have even less of a bearing surface than the 311413 yet I don't hear anyone posting long threads of complaints against the mold.

I think that most folks who bought the 311413 in the past tried to get them to shoot close to FMJ velocities prior to Poly-coating came about. I'm just trying to see if poly-coating improves the potential for accuracy out of this mold. For all we know, it could just need some modern technology to finally bring the Squibb back into what it could be.
Again, its an experiment. If it doesn't work, I still got to have time in the casting/reloading bench and hopefully some range time soon. documenting the experiment is part of the whole experience for me. I've got a spread of potential velocities to test to determine which is the most accurate with that load and which cycles an AR10. By the time I get to the range I may have a couple of series to test velocities at 1900fps and 1800fps and possible down to 1600fps with another slow powder. I'm hoping that the PC Coat helps prevent the nose slump or misalignment that everyone is discussing. I won't know until I test.

[HangFireW8]

Reading Phil Sharpe is a lot like trying to get somewhere using a 'road map' full of mistakes. He is not the best source out there for sure!

Look again at the picture of the Squib..... WHY is the gas check shank SO LONG?? Allow me to answer as I've been at this game well over a half century. Many way back thought "bearing surface" of a cast bullet should be limited to prevent leading.... Old school..... Also it was a thought process that if a little lube is good a LOT is better! Some still think so but the guys getting the real groups go as lean as they can on lube without problems showing up. The long shank is helpful for these two theories.... BUT....

Uh, no. The long shank on the 311413 is just a boattail, because of (as has already been written in this thread), slip-on gas checks.

Phil Sharpe was a threat to other gun writers because he had a Bach of Science degree and applied the scientific method to everything he did. He was constantly rebuking Elmer Keith for way overpressure loads, this from Keith sending him his loads and Phil either having a powder company test for him, or later, testing them himself. While he did scale back some in 57-61, when he died from a heart attack he was commuting to work in Emmitsburg MD from Fairfield... to the ballistics lab that he owned. A few other jealous gunwriters starting throwing aspersions moments later about his "mysterious death" and alluding to alcohol.

Sharpe did not "earn a frugal living". Between his lab, the occasional Government contract, being a paid magazine editor, his gun books, pulp fiction writing income, and expert testimony income, he was living very well, especially by 1950's standards. He used a recording machine to dictate replies to letters, as required for his editor job, and employed a secretary to type them up and send them. They all got paid a few cents per letter, but it was a chore, not a perk. He managed to turn a cost minus part of the job that O'Conner and Keith hated into a profit center.

Writing the amazingly prolific Sharpe off as a dreaming, exaggerating alcoholic just because his first edition listed some unsafe loads from some other sources is just too easy and too inaccurate. He advanced the science of not just handloading, but shooting cast. Who here has invented a 7mm Magnum cartridge with an open source reamer blueprint and throating just perfect for accurate, high velocity cast loads? Sharpe has already been there. Who promoted bore slugging and boolit fit? Sharpe back in the 30's.

As already stated, lube is the least problem here. Duplicating Sharpe's group would require careful alloy blending and matching, a custom slow-twist barrel, doubling down on all benchrest loading techniques, and the luck to get all 10 slip-on gas checks to fall off at just the right moment. You won't get there in a 1-10 or 1-12 twist AR-10 platform because of the twist, not to mention the violence of autoloading will knock the cartridge eccentric.

I won't get there with my 311413 mold, because it casts at .317", and there's no good way to size it to .308" and keep it concentric.