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Thread: high velocity with 311413 Squib Bullets in 308 Win AR10.

  1. #1
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    bruce drake's Avatar
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    high velocity with 311413 Squib Bullets in 308 Win AR10.

    Phillip Sharpe wrote in his 1937 book "Complete Guide to Handloading" (Page 96) that he was successfully shooting the Lyman 311413 169gr "Squib" bullet in his 30-06 Springfield out to 2200fps with 1-1.25MOA accuracy off a rest in 10-shot groups using standard gas checks and his personal lube recipe. He further compounded this claim with his work with Hercules gunpowder's ballistics office where they got 2600fps with that same bullet/gas check and lube combo with no leading but didn't report the final powder load (He was using an now obsolete and out of production Hercules Sharpshooter brand gunpowder with psi values on the loads going from 33K to 55K)

    Sharpe's personal bullet lube for high velocity work? Colloidal graphite in distilled water painted onto the bullet with a camel's hair brush and allowed to dry. Pre-PC but a unique way to prevent leading in his rifles.

    his book is available at this link: http://cnqzu.com/library/Anarchy%20F...rpe%201937.pdf

    Now enough of the background on an out of date reference book in a PC sub-forum thread. But this will be the basis of my planned experiments this year with the 311413 "Squib" bullets with a gas check and PC coatings. I hope to replicate those same group sizes and hopefully use this bullet design in a 200-300 yard Highpower rifle match with an AR10 chambered in 308 Win.
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    I will try to update this thread with commentary and pictures throughout the spring and summer with initial load testing at 100 yards and then the actual range performance at one of the rifle matches this spring.
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    Bruce
    Last edited by bruce drake; 02-08-2018 at 04:53 PM.
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    a sub-project to this will be develop PC high-velocity and accurate loads for my 6.5 Grendel AR15 with 100 and 125gr and potentially 140 and 170gr loads for my 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x55 bolt rifles.
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    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I never had any success with the Squibb bullet above about 1400 fps and was told by people who knew Sharpe well that he was inclined to do his most prolific writing when under the influence of alcoholic medicinal spirits...
    The ENEMY is listening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce drake View Post
    a sub-project to this will be develop PC high-velocity and accurate loads for my 6.5 Grendel AR15 with 100 and 125gr and potentially 140 and 170gr loads for my 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x55 bolt rifles.
    very interested in your 6.5 Grendel ..
    I load development right at the start of hunting season .. showed promise before I had to stop.. Hope to pick it back up in May and June ..

    ps anything above 2400 FPS bacon grease color will be your friend for no barrel buildup
    I carry a Nuke50 because cleaning up the mess is Silly !!

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I never had any success with the Squibb bullet above about 1400 fps and was told by people who knew Sharpe well that he was inclined to do his most prolific writing when under the influence of alcoholic medicinal spirits...
    A lot of folks do the same on this forum also...get prolific in posting after a few medicinal spirits...

    That said, I have had decent success with the Squibb bullet at 1600fps but I never pushed the bullet past that speed with standard lubes.

    Sharpe's book had to be copy-edited by his publishers and his industry compatriots would not put their names into the books if the experiments weren't repeatable.

    But isn't this the forum for experimentation since we are also dealing with a new lube process with PC Powders?

    And after WWII, he updated both his "Complete Book of Handloading" as well as his book on "The Rifle in America" for new editions of readers so he was well known as a ballistics expert and the American hunters and reloaders valued his monthly magazine articles in NRA and Outdoor Life magazines also.

    Reading the modern pioneers of smokeless reloading like Sharpe, Hatcher and Keith will teach you more than you can ever consider. Dutchman posted this link in the past to give our shooter forum a link to many of these older books in zipped pdf format. Good to put in your download file and for winter reading when the range is snowed over.
    http://stevespages.com/page7d.htm

    We lost Phil Sharpe way too soon in his career (he died in 1961 at the age of 57). Allegations of drinking to excess after WWII could be applied to many veterans of many conflicts but Phil passed away of a severe heart attack that many now describe as a "widowmaker". Having that type of heart attack in the 60's was an extremely quick death sentence. He was living in semi-retirement by that time as he had suffered his first heart attack in 1957 and his recovery took longer than many expected.

    He developed the 7x61 Sharpe & Hart cartridge in conjunction with the Norma ammunition company (Dick Hart was the owner of Hart Rifle Barrels, a well-known and respected barrel maker of the time and that company's barrels are still well-sought after barrels for benchrest and long range shooting.) He also contracted with Mauser rifles to be chambered in that cartridge and shipped to the US from a premier European rifle company (Schultz & Larson). The 7x61S&H preceded the 7 Rem Mag by many years but ballistically they are almost twins but the 7x61S&H has a much better neck for cast bullets and could be reformed from 300H&H Magnum brass very easily.

    Many consider him the man behind the official creation of the 357 Magnum with his long friendship with D. B. Wesson of Smith & Wesson and his technical knowledge (He was on the NRA's Technical Bureau for more than 25 years). Elmer Keith may have developed his SWC bullet profile and pushed the envelope with his 38/44 loads in 38 Special cartridges, but Sharpe used pressure testing and many shots into the berm to ensure that S&W could safely market the 357 Magnum and the new pistols to shoot it.

    Sharpe also made a frugal living as a ballistics expert and witness. He bought his first home shortly after the war using his GI Bill eligibility from WWII. He was one of the first civilian shooters to have a "portable chronograph" to test his loads safely (portable was a 60lb setup) and he spoke into a dictaphone (wax cylinders) that was powered by an inverter and a car battery. His old dictaphone cylinders he reused in many ways to demonstrate being frugal - he built a wax mold to pour his own cylinders from older cylinders no longer needed and he also developed a published a pistol bullet lube with a machinist grease being stirred into the pot of melted cylinders to be able to put in his Lyman 45s...

    I've had decent accuracy with the Squibb loaded into my Enfield No4 and a bolt action 30-06 Mauser. I'm willing to test again on which is more accurate.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke4320 View Post
    very interested in your 6.5 Grendel ..
    I load development right at the start of hunting season .. showed promise before I had to stop.. Hope to pick it back up in May and June ..

    ps anything above 2400 FPS bacon grease color will be your friend for no barrel buildup
    But i like my poopy-brown Architectural Bronze from Eastwood Paints!!!!

    I intend to use 2500fps as my goal velocity this year in the testing phase. I may go hotter if the results are good at 2500fps.
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    Tried that bullet in my Armalite AR-10 A4 carbine with dismal results. Bullets were donated by a member here. They were conventional lubed.

    The best results I had were with NOE's 311414 SP, lubed with Carnuba Red and enough Reloader 15 for 100% reliability.

    http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...0225qboop8l6h3



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  8. #8
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    What was the twist rate on your barrel? Did you know the hardness of the donated bullets?

    That NOE bullet looks like a copy of the Harris 155gr design that LEE runs. I have that LEE mold. I may do side by comparisons withe LEE mold and perhaps the LEE .312 185gr and their .309 200gr models in addition to the Lyman 170gr 311291 mold at a later time. That Lee 155gr bullet has always given me good accuracy out of 7.62x39, 30-06 and 308Win rifles.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    I never could get that squib bullet to group with any load/firearm combo I tried it in doing over 1600fps. Had a lyman mold for over 20 years and finely sold it when I was thinning the herd last your selling of 10+ 30cal molds.

    Looking forward to your testing. Just started doing a little 308w/hv with pc'd bullets myself. 2700fps+/2" 10-shot groups @ 100yds is easily doable. Finely got the rifle dialed in and will finely be able to start looking for accuracy.

    The last testing I did was to finalize the scope mounts/rings setting the mounts up with 30moa rise and then bringing the scope back into 100yd zero with burris rings/inserts. Finely settled on a rear bag and completed the bump die for a herters 9-ton swaging press. The bump die is to true the gc to the bullets body and to make the bullet round. Did some testing a couple weeks ago with some 2500fps+ loads using the lee 312-160tl bullet with home made al gc's and pc'd. Loaded up 22 rounds, did 22 because the darn pc coating is inconsistent in thickness and I was running the oal long seating the bullets into the lands when I close the bolt. Every time I set the oal long that way I end up with a couple that the bolt either won't close or is extremely hard closing. I tried to get the best of both worlds and have the bullets in the lands but not far enough that some of the pc buildup would affect the bolt closing.

    Anyway went to the range and all 22 went bang and more importantly no fliers. Did 35gr/h335 test loads awhile back and had fliers. I bumped the bullets and used a little less powder 34.7gr of h335. Sighted the scope in to hit the 1/4" red center dot and tested the loads. All 22 rounds stayed within or hit the 2 5/8" circle of the outer ring of the target. Never tried that load before but in 22 shots no bullet hit more than 1 3/8" from the point of aim @ 2500fps+.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    That top targets was looking pretty good for 10 shots in each. 5 of the 10 shots were in the 1" circle of the left target. 3 holes took out the red center and 3 shots touching @ 2 o-clock on the right target. That's telling me the loads close, up?/down? on powder, anneal the gc's?, and the groups will tighten up.

    Looking forward to your testing.

  10. #10
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    Thanks. I'll be doing ladder tests with IMR 4895 first. Next batch after that I'm considering either IMR 4064, IMR 3031 or Hodgdon Varget.
    Last edited by bruce drake; 02-09-2018 at 09:47 PM.
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    I never had any success with the Squibb bullet above about 1400 fps and was told by people who knew Sharpe well that he was inclined to do his most prolific writing when under the influence of alcoholic medicinal spirits...
    Don't listen to what people say that the Ideal 311413 does not produce accurate groups above 1400 fps:

    Note the words ... most accurate and up to 600 yards

    So, I watched eBay 'hard' for that mold and was lucky to win a bid on the 311413, then - cast a 100 - put GC's on them and reload 20 with the powder charge in the 1949 Handbook

    I had the pleasure to shoot it for the 1st time one Sunday ...


    ... after our 2 day Lever Action Silhouette Match at Ridgway.

    Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I replaced)
    Ideal 311413 - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
    16.5gr IMR 4759 ... 1625 fps

    A box of 20:
    * got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
    * got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds

    The Ideal 311413 reload is now my 'Go To' for my Big Bore Lever Action Silhouette matches, With Accuracy with the following powder charges:
    * 18gr 4759 - 1746 fps
    * 29gr 3031 - 2055 fps
    * 30gr 3031 - 2179 fps
    Regards
    John

  12. #12
    Humm....

    Folks seem to think that the limiting factor in getting high velocity, ...with accuracy, when using cast bullets, ..is the lube.
    Nope, it ain't the lube....
    .
    The limiting factor in high velocity, with accuracy, is the lead alloy.
    Lead is soft, the push generated by the exploding gunpowder, ..is a heavy fist, of fast quick force !

    That fist of explosive force, hits the bullet base first, and it hits the bullet's .......front ...last.
    The base of the bullet, accelerates, before the point.
    Lucky for us; the base flattens out, filling the throat, and the bullet's nose then slumps, filling the bore.

    And the overall result is an accurate shot leaving the rifled barrel.
    .
    .
    A pointed cast lead bullet has vastly more airspace around it's nose, "to slump" than a round nose bullet.
    That is why pointed lead bullets are notorious for being inaccurate. ( They exit the muzzle bent at the point. )

    To shoot a pointed lead bullet accurately, we must cast them very hard, then use very light charges of fast burning powder.
    .
    If accuracy at velocity is what we want, we are limited to round nose bullets, rather than pointed lead bullets.
    .
    A study of bullet lubes is fine, but if you want high velocity with cast bullets, and you wish to use a pointed bullet, then you need to cast the bullet a hell of a lot harder than we can at home, and/or, we need a propellant which gives the bullet a long slow push to high velocity.

    We in our home work shops, do not have the technology to make bullets hard enough to make them shoot fast, and there are apparently no powders suitable for a long slow push needed for gentle launches to high velocity in cast bullets.
    .
    In the long run, unless technology changes, we are pretty much limited to 2200 fps.

  13. #13
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    robert12345,

    You may learn something if you search for posts by Bama and also Larry Gibson.
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    Guess I need to tell my 5.56 at 2700 FPS, My 308 at 2500 FPS and my 358 Win at almost 2400 FPS with lowly 98/2 alloy they need to stop now
    cause they can't do that
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  15. #15
    Sir, I wish you had stated a little more than you did.
    The bullet in question, ( from the photograph ),is one of the most notoriously inaccurate bullets in the Lyman/Ideal line.
    .
    And for just the reasons I stated.
    The unsupported point slumps under sudden acceleration.
    .
    Bullets long in the nose ( in order to be accurately fired at high velocity ...2200 fps) must be of the round nose type, in order that they slump less under the pressure of acceleration.

    If one wishes to shoot a pointed cast bullet, the nose needs to be short, and the body long, ( Lovern style ), and the bullet needs to be cast very hard.
    .
    The trick to high velocity in cast bullets, is simple, you shoot a bullet which is well supported by the case neck, the throat, and the bore.

    Then you shoot it at a velocity, such that it does not strip itself out by the twisting force of the rifling.
    .
    A well supported bullet, properly lubed, hard cast, fired down a long rifling twist, ..and pushed by the right powder, can indeed hit 3000 fps, and with accuracy, but not so much the bullet in question.
    .
    .
    Me,
    100,000 bullets cast, and 50 years experience forces me to stand by my words.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Squib was a guy from Lima Ohio who designed this bullet in the mid-30s. It was popular up through the late 40's. Lyman, Cramer, Belding and Mull all made versions of the bullet. I have examples of all three molds.

    It is very hard to known the truth about this bullet as people's experience seems to vary quite a bit. Most, myself included, find that about 1.4K fps is the max velocity for accuracy. Others claim much higher velocity.

    Some years back, a fellow in this board designed a 200 grain version of this bullet and we did a group buy from Lee. Again, the experiences of the shooters had wide variance.

    So, keep us posted on how it works out for you. It will be an interesting project.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  17. #17
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    Thanks Char-Gar for the note about these pointed bullet designs. And yes, I did chose this bullet for the specific challenge of getting an accurate load for this design. If I wanted to stick with the tried and true as many on this thread are pontificating, I'd stick with the FN and RN profiles of the Lee 150grFN and Lyman 311291 170gr bullets that I have sitting in coffee cans on a shelf in the garage.
    The experiment is to see if PC coating these bullets aids in increasing their speed while retaining accuracy. I have developed accurate lubed loads with this bullet in my 308 Win and 30-06 chambered Mauser rifles at the lower velocity limits but since I'm trying to develop loads to function the semi-auto AR10, I'm going to need increase gas pressure past my Alliant Red Dot and 2400 powder based loads.
    Last edited by bruce drake; 02-09-2018 at 09:51 PM.
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    Best I ever managed with acceptable accuracy using the 311413 was around 1750 fps in my .30-30 Savage 340. Also, found it to be a real 'tack driver' in my .30-40 Krag at 1475...like near-MOA @ 100M with iron sights. Otherwise, in the .308 WCF and .30-06, that boolit yielded dismal (in my mind) results. It looks like it should work...which, truth be told, is why I bought the mold...but never met my expectations. Sold the mold to someone here on the forum but that was long before I got into powder-coat...kinda wish I had it back now.

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  19. #19
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    I have two of these 311413 molds. One has been modified to cast a flatbase - no gas check bullet (no reason for a gascheck if shooting under 1600fps anyways and the other one is in a dual-cavity custom mold with one 311413 cavity and a 311410 130gr bevel base bullet. They come up on Ebay on a faily regular basis. I'm having a heck of a time finding a couple of spirepoint 6.5mm
    & 7mm molds (266386, 287377) for additional experiments.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce drake View Post
    What was the twist rate on your barrel? Did you know the hardness of the donated bullets?

    The Armalite has a 1 to 11.25 twist. Chrome moly barrel with a chrome lined bore and a NATO chamber. Sadly, I don't know what the alloy of the donated cast 311413's were. I assume they were air cooled wheel weights. Impossible to test hardness of bullets without a flat nose, using the LBT tester.

    I never got any significant groups with cast bullet that were over 180 grains. I did try NOE's 200 grain 311365 Spitzer.

    My rifle will not feed any bullet that isn't close to a spitzer, with 100% reliability. I tried a whole host of them. I have friend that has over thirty 30 caliber moulds. The RCBS Silhouette bullets were the only ones that would feed and did show grouping potential. But I didn't per sue that route...... because they are only available as 2 cavity moulds and RCBS moulds have a tendency to drop small. I size my bullets at .3125 diameter on a Star and use Carnuba Red.

    The bullets I opted for were NOE's 311365 SP, NOE's 311414 SP and Miha's 180 grain Silhouette.......which is the only bullet with a tiny meplat that would feed 100% of the time. Any autoloader that wont cycle is no use to me.

    What I do/use:

    Military brass, crimp removed and trimmed to minimum, then sized with a RCBS X-die.

    Bullets are air cooled (my approximation of WW) culled, Gator gas checks installed, sized on Star then heat treated before being resized and lubed with CR. I don't powder coat.

    All charges dispensed with RCBS Chargemaster. I don't use duplex loads and I don't use fillers.

    Bullets seated then, separately, taper crimped.

    I only test ten shot groups, at 100 yards, and fire at a steady pace till magazine is empty. That is to say, I don't fire five and wait till barrel cools, to fire the other five.

    Powders that I tested: (ranked fastest to slowest) H-4895, N-135, AA-2495, AA-4064, RL-15, N-140, Varget, IMR-4320, N-150, AA-4350 (those in bold print showed the most promise with RL-15 having a slight edge)

    Any of slower powders, like SR 4759 and AA 5477, were dismal failures, because by the time I got them to cycled the action, they were throwing shotgun patterns. BTW, I have a loose leaf binder full of targets shot with slower powders that failed, miserably.

    I did follow Bruce B's thread on cast with his M1A......I'll tell you this, the M1A and the AR-10 are two different animals so use it only as a guide and not the holy grail, if your not loading for the same platform.

    There is very little data available for cast bullets in auto loaders. Most is for single loading arms. Most of that data, might be accurate but isn't capable of operating an auto loader. Basically, your on your own, treading in uncharted waters.

    Winelover

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check