So paper patch boolits not supposed to lead up barrels eh ?

[Gunlaker]

Oop. One more important thing. If this is Dan's reamer design, be aware that when he did the design he had some short WW brass on had so spec'd the reamer to use brass trimmed shorter than 2.1". Trim it only after fireforming though. I use 2.092" on my two .45-70's.

My second link includes the reamer spec.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Keith what I see in your patches is not uncommon to see the inner wrap not shredded like you see rfd's remnants this could happen with paper to thick, bullet to hard, bullet undersized to much for the alloy hardness to the bore or a combination of all. I don't see any signs of gas blow by but I do see patches that went through a fouled bore. This could be the cause for lead smears from the patch getting pushed back when loading a fouled throat or if a paper ring was between the chamber end and the 45 degree transition into the throat, this could push the patch back a little to expose dry alloy.
Your .08 alloy test dimple is in line with my Lee lead tester for 1/16 alloy and 1/16 alloy is a good alloy to use for the Jim 443540M and the Jim 446545M. But if the 443540 drops out at .442 or .441 and your using .0015" or .0018" paper then you might get a gas cut if the wad stack is not good enough to seal the bore especially with the .45-70 with out using a lube wad and a single card under the bullet. This is what the left bullet was loaded with. The center bullet was loaded right at bore diameter with 1/16 alloy but it has a .023" card over the powder a 1/8" lube wad and a plastic wad under the bullet with 68 grains of 1.5 Swiss. The gas cut bullet was loaded with 82 gr of 1.5 Swiss in the .45-70 also. the dimple is where the shank meets the ogive.
Attachment 213622
Here are 5 bullets like yours patched .002" under bore diameter. The left and far right are unfired. Note the slight gas cuts in the first two and the light engravings on the shank of the rest. These 5 were shot with the .45-90 using 83 gr of 2F.
Attachment 213623
The 446545M is a excellent bullet patched with .0018" or .002" paper and breach seated with a full load of powder in a clean throat using 1/16 alloy. But patched with .0015" paper it will be a hard thumb push to load that might roll the patch back some when chambering the round.

[Keith]

Well thanks to all for the replies. Lots to try.
After getting the bore clean last night I coated it in Kroil. This morning two patches each bought out a sliver of lead. The bore feels uniform all the way except right near the muzzle there is a tightening but I cant see anything. It wouldnt have a choke would it.
Chris , I dont think the reamer could be the DanT one the angle looks to be more 45 deg than 25 wouldnt you think from the photo.
My fired case mouths measure .473 OD
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the fired patches we see do not really suggest leading.
the ones that blew away could probably tell more of a story.
the problem with the 45/70 is that you lose a lot of case capacity with fancy wad stacks, and that limits long range performance.
long soft wadstacks also reduce bumpup, which in the extreme will stop the bullet spinning from the start of its travel.
the odg used as thin as a piece of paper as an overpowder wad, just enough to keep the powder in the case.
in that chamber, sizing cases is unlikely to help in any way.
in fact it might do harm to patches as bullets are seated.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

It seems the consensus is gas cutting.
I will spend some more time getting the lead out, then load some more with the same powder but compressing more to fit in some more wads. I dont have any LDPE but have some auto cork gasket to try.
I have some Swiss stashed away, not enough to use for continual use but enough to experiment with to see if it bumps up more.
If my 443 mould would drop at 443 that might be better too, but not much I can do about that unless I lap it.
The 446 is too big for this tight barrel unless I make a push through sizer.
Lead pots pictures tell the story. Thank goodness for snow drifts
At least I am not alone in this . I see others have had similar problems as this before. I will persevere.
Keith

[Gunlaker]

Keith do you have any of the plastic coffee can lids? I think they are LDPE. In my .45-70 I have not had good luck with cork. It seems to significantly reduce the bump up of the bullet which exacerbates gas cutting.

I've got a couple of rifles that can't shoot the 446" bullets so I size them down to 0.445". Lubing them with RCBS case lube before sizing works well ( as long as you remove the lube .

The reamer does look like it is less than 45 degrees. Did Dave not give you a reamer print, or any other information? I know he does have all of Dan's prints on file, that's why I suspected it might be one of his.

If I had no other choice I'd use a lube cookie between card wads until I got some LDPE.

Chris.

[25ring]

Keith,Try some straight turpentine on a tight patch,tight enough that you have to use a mallet to get it through.You'll get all the lead out after a few patches.Then try a 1/8" thick rubber cork wad,I think you'll have better luck. FWIW--Mike.

[Gunlaker]

Oh, Keith I just remembered. The Dan T reamer is 25 degrees not 45 so that is likely what you have.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Here you go Keith. Here is a print Dan sent me during a discussion we had about tight chambers.
If the reamer you have from Manson this might be it.

Attachment 213663

[Gunlaker]

That's the one. Same as in the second link I posted. It works very well once you find what it likes.

Chris.

[country gent]

WHat is the dia of the wads your using? a to small dia wad may not seal enough. You may want to make a wad punch that cuts a wad around .463-.465 dia so it starts snug in the case and is slightly compressed under the bullet to aid the seal.

[BrentD]

I am late to this party, but here is a good picture of what gas cutting looks like on the patches.



If your patches don't look like this, or worse, then you really can't have gas cutting because the gas has to get to the patch before it can attack the lead. Kurt's gas cut bullets are really dramatic examples, but we rarely get to catch our bullets like that. The patches are more accessible to us and this is what they have to look for, or worse. Notice the charred edges to the slashed in the paper. That is the key.

[Keith]

Well I had an interesting couple of hours at the range today.
Loaded all Swiss 2F as a trial.
First target was 80 grains measure of Swiss then the thin card then a wad of Poly material I found. Compressed to give me 0.2 inch to seat the bullet into.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

That didnt look to bad. Funny its in a circle.
All the patched holes are yesterdays lot. Hardly keep them on the paper.
I suspect I had a little leading that picked up shot after shot.
Next was the same load but with a second wad of some gasket material I found , like thick card.
I moved the sights to print in the white so I could see it easier. 1st shot was a bit high so came down.
second was OK the a high flier then the next two were OK.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

The last group was with just a thin card like yesterday with Wano.
One of the patches shows gas cutting like Brents. I think this started leading and the group went to pot like yesterday.
Looks like 1 thin card is not enough.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

Looks like we are on the right track but
Here are the patches I found. Not as windy as yesterday. The burnt one in the centre.
All these are 1 inch wide. Looks like the outer is confetti OK but the inner not quite.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

Here is the stuff I used for the wads.
Next I need to do it again with Wano and compare.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

[Don McDowell]

Keith just for kicks and grins, try another batch of loads with just the gasket material, and be mindful of your wiping routine and bench technique. Might want to make a quick lead mine check before you shoot the next batch, just in case.

[Gunlaker]

Keith my .45-70's never shred the inner patch completely but still show great accuracy. It looks like your load is similar to what I'm using. I've found that these chambers are pretty picky when it comes to powder brand and granulation. Swiss, or the discontinued Goex Express FFg worked best for me. The Old Eynsford had some problems with gas cutting. Interestingly when I'd recover a handful of bullets only one in a batch might show a small amount of gas cutting. Not severe like some of the examples that Kurt has shown, but just a little bit around the groove corners on the occasional bullet. I haven't seen that with Swiss 1.5 in these rifles. Must be just the right burn rate for my 16:1 alloy.

It does seem that you've got the same reamer as me so once you've shot the cases a few times, be sure that they aren't the full 2.10" long or they will run over the 25 degree angle at the end of the chamber.

It does look like a good improvement though!

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Keith one more thing. When you have patch remnants with little black lines on them where the grooves are that generally means that there is still fouling in the groove corners.

Chris.

[Keith]

Yes, I am happy now, you guys got me on the right track. I will repeat both the wads with Swiss and Wano .
I will try and find a bit thinner poly.
The gasket measures 0.05 and the poly 0.12 and I shot this at 110 yards. First time I have shot lead in over 12 months so a bit rusty
I have the barrel soaking in Kroil again , see what comes out.

[Keith]

Keith one more thing. When you have patch remnants with little black lines on them where the grooves are that generally means that there is still fouling in the groove corners.

Chris.

Yes, that was mentioned earlier, I think by Kurt. I am short stroking 2 wet patches back and forth, then 2 dry but looks as there may still be some fouling in the corners. I bought a bunch of brushes and nuts and am in the process of making pigs or gophers with those round felts. See if that gets into the corners better.

[Keith]

Here you go Keith. Here is a print Dan sent me during a discussion we had about tight chambers.
If the reamer you have from Manson this might be it.

Attachment 213663

Thats it. I just went back through my emails and Dave did send me that same print. Same as Chris,s also.

[Gunlaker]

The round felts are pretty good I think. I have been experimenting with the BACO wipers and my .45-2.4" version of Dan's chamber. I run two of them through per pass, and a dry patch. In this respect it's not faster than regular patching between shots, but it gets the bore cleaner and dryer.

The o-rings on the BACO wipers are good at keeping the "wiping juice" out of the rifles action which I think is a good thing on a highwall action in particular, where the wiping fluid can soak into the stock if you have too much of it going into the action.

Chris.