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Thread: So paper patch boolits not supposed to lead up barrels eh ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    So paper patch boolits not supposed to lead up barrels eh ?

    Well after shooting greasers for 20 odd years , I thought I would give PP a go.
    I had previously built a couple of 45-90,s on Rolling Block actions. One a Navy Arms and the other a Swede.
    The Navy had a new Krieger 1 in 16 , so I pulled it out, cut an inch off and rechambered with a Dave Manson 45-70 PP reamer I bought for the purpose. The Krieger is a couple of thou tighter then the Green Mountain in the Swede so anyway I bought two moulds off Baco. One a Jim 443540M and the other a Jim 446545M. I determined the paper I needed and bought a roll off Baco as well.
    All this was over a year ago, and the Doc said my blood lead levels were up, so I stopped handing lead and shooting for a year.
    My BLL has gone down a bit, but I missed shooting, so said Bugger it and thought I would get this to shoot anyway.
    Bought some certified 16 to 1 ingots and cast up a few with both the 433 and the 446.
    The 443 with the 16 to 1 came out about 441 to 442 and when wrapped are a snug fit in the bore. When pushed through the pressure is about the same as a patch and the rifling barely leaves a mark.
    Filled a fire formed case with Wano PP, card wad compressed about 2 mm. boolit is a easy loose fit, load and fire.
    The second shot was about 2 inches from the first then it went downhill from there.
    Wiping 2 damp with moose milk then two dry between each shot.
    Gave up after 6 and suspected lead so cleaned with turps. It was a lead mine.
    My patches are 1 inch wide with maybe 1/8 inch turned under.
    I tried some over long ones, past the ogive and they are not cutting right to the front so thought the 1 inch ones should be enough.
    I cant see them bumping up that much in front so am at a loss as to how its leading up.
    Any ideas?
    Keith
    Last edited by Keith; 02-08-2018 at 12:49 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Have you recovered any patches? they can tell you a lot. What size of card wad are you using dia and thickness? from your descrition I assue your wrapping with a flat base no tail. Depending on the bullets ogive the patch may need to be slightly longer. While the ogive may not be bumping up if there is full bullet dia eposed ahead of it this may be bumping up to case issues. measure from ogive to base and add a little less than half bullet dia. This will cover the full driving area and allow for fold over with a small center hole showing the bullet base. use 2 wraps of paper with ends just short of meeting .030".

    My bullets are 530 grns .442 dia wraped 2 wraps of seth cole paper .0018 thickness ( I think its 55w). The patch is .030 short of 2 full wraps so the under wrap and over the 2nd end is still able to lay flat. Fold under is such that there is a .045"-.060" circle of bullet base showing still. This gives a very flat base to the bullet. I wrap dry and use a patch board for ease. My patches are from the ogive down.

    My load is olde ensforde 1 1/2f ( I think I'm working from memory here). enough for a 1/8" compression with the wad stack. The over powder wad is a NAPA ruber fiber gasket material wad .060 thick and .460 dia. compressed with this wad. a .090" grease cookie of SPG a playing card wad of the same dia. then 2 tracing paper wads. These are set with little tool I made so they are snug together. The bullet is hand seated onto this and a light neck tension done with the sizing die, size for size or maybe .001 smaller. Bullet can be spun by hand but dosnt fall out. Bullet are only in the case .150" or so. Before hand seating I wipe the paper Patch down lightly with JO JOba oil. I put a drop on finger and work thumb and to fingers do 3-5 bullets and remove excess with a cleaning patch.

    You arnt getting paper rings left in the chamber. Ive found rifles with no real throat ( leade right off the case mouth) do better with bore riders than chambers with a throat do. Paper rings indicate the bullet swelling before leade and bigger than then its sheared off.

    THe book Loading and Shooting The Paper Patched Bullet a Beginners Guide, by Randolph S Wright is very good and informative. Covers casting wrapping cutting the patch loading and other areas.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    keith,
    sometimes the patch can get cut on the chamber/barrel transition.
    confetti shows this as the folded under part attatched to short fingers, and then longer fingers with no base part attatched.
    45 degree transitions are worse for this than 4 or 7 degree.
    the lead then comes off the back bit of the bullet, about how much the bullet was in the case.
    sometimes lubing the back 1/2 of the patch with tallow can help, but not necessarily.
    your bullet at 431 to 432 sounds quite small for a 45 cal, and must require thick paper to be a sliding fit in the bore as you describe.
    in fact your paper as wrapped must be about 0.0045 per layer, making 0.009 per side.
    0.004 per side total or a little less might be better, with a bullet to suit.
    is the krieger henry or traditional rifled?
    too short a patches will lead but rarely to the extent you describe.
    you really need to recover a number of fired patches as this can tell a lot.
    they will often show blowby, although you should not have any as you loaded the ammo.
    the 0.446 bullet will need quite thin paper the slide into the barrel.
    depending on what paper you can get you might have to compress lowder a lot and use neck tension so the bullet does not set back into the case when you chamber the round.
    using the thinner paper and thicker bullet might well require less bullet bumpup, creating a quicker seal in the barrel.
    a 0.446 bullet patched with seth cole 55y requires a breech seater to get into my badger bore.
    so many possibilities and you just have to try them one at a time.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  4. #4
    Boolit Man
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    I have Wrights book and Matthews as well. Also read lots of posts on the various forums including your loading methods CG.
    Some keep it simple so I am starting there, just the thin card , no lube. Its a proper PP reamer but not sure on the leade angle. Its a tight chamber, I did it by hand. If I try even a light bell to make it easier to seat the boolit I cant chamber the case. I was wondering if the 442 was too small. earlier I cast some from my scrap pot. Lead and wheelweights, came out frosty looking. They measured 443 and wrapped tighter.
    The 446 mould in the harder lead came out 445 but would not start to chamber with this paper. It would be better in the GM barrel.
    I might see if I can get thinner paper to try it again in this barrel.
    Sorry Bruce. I made a typo. The two moulds are 443 and 446.
    I will try for a photo of the paper. I could find several of the longer one, it was about 1 1/8 inch long but the shorter 1 inch ones I only found one.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    keith,if it won't work simple it wont work complicated generally.
    the 443 mould might work with the baco paper, and wetpatcing will make the diameter smaller than dry patching.
    this can be handy when getting a bullet to fit.
    don't worry about the matthews book.
    it is clear from reading it that he was confused when he wrote it, and it must have sent a lot of people up **** creek without a paddle.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    If you haven't done so already, be sure to put a light chamfer on the inside of the case mouth, otherwise the case mouth can put a pinch on the paper letting it tear and expose the base. If your bullets are to loose in the case, that can also give you some blowby/gas cutting.
    Check your wiping routine. Make sure you're wet patches are just damp enough that you don't end up leaving a lot of moisture puddles in the barrel. You want those patches to just be damp.
    But yes it is possible to get leading when shooting paper patch, and it's a dang mess when something goes wrong.
    GUSA #6
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  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    Yes , I have chamfered the cases and dry patch. The boolits are barely in and will come out if they are lifted. I might try compressing more and seating deeper or the other way, make a breech seater and do that.
    Try for a patch pic.
    . by Keith Cree, on Flickr
    The patch nearest the boolit on the right is the shorter one at 1 inch . Its the only one I could find this morning. It was a bit windy , and perhaps they were confetti.
    . by Keith Cree, on Flickr

    The others are the longer patch and were easier to find. You can see they are a bit long but still cant explain the leading.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    keith,
    your patces are too long, but that should not cause leading.
    what might is the ammount of black showing up those patches, suggesting blowby causing gas cutting.
    that bullet in that case should be o.k., but that black cannot be denied.
    unless it is from insufficient wiping?
    12:1 alloy has never shown black confetti here, and cuts the paper right to about where your patches go on the patched bullet.
    a dry or barely oiled bore is to be siught after for target shooting pp bullets.
    one would have suspected patches as shown on the bullet to cut to the front or very near, yet yours come nowhere near that, also suggesting minimal bumpup. this also leads to suspicion re blowby.
    the transition is clearly not cutting the paper - a good thing.
    keep safe,
    bruce.
    Last edited by BRUCE MOULDS; 02-08-2018 at 02:37 AM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    Bruce, here is a pic of the reamer. it looks like 45 degrees but the back of the patches look OK dont you think.?
    . by Keith Cree, on Flickr

    Maybe not 45, perhaps 35???

  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRUCE MOULDS View Post
    keith,
    your patces are too long, but that should not cause leading.
    what might is the ammount of black showing up those patches, suggesting blowby causing gas cutting.
    that bullet in that case should be o.k., but that black cannot be denied.
    unless it is from insufficient wiping?
    a dry or barely oiled bore is to be siught after for target shooting pp bullets.
    one would have suspected patches as shown on the bullet to cut to the front or very near, yet yours come nowhere near that, also suggesting minimal bumpup. this also leads to suspicion re blowby.
    the transition is clearly not cutting the paper - a good thing.
    keep safe,
    bruce.
    Bruce, just to eliminate fouling this morning I was wiping squeeky clean between shots with a dry bore.
    I thought this 16 to one seemed soft as the indent with the hardness tester was .08. I thought that should have bumped up.
    I was worried about these money bullets nose slumping. To eliminate blowby I guess I should go softer but .08 indent seemed soft.
    Should I compress more and try a wad stack?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    keith,
    the thinnest hardest wad will give the most bumpup.
    a wadstack or wad that seals might stop blowby.
    you are right 16:1 is not a hard alloy.
    however in your case you could work back to 20:1, 25:1, and even as low as 30:1 if necessary.
    your idea of avoiding nose slump is a good one, but sufficient bumpup is of greater importance.
    guys like brent are using 16:1 in 45/70s with 80+ gns of powder and a bullet seated like yours with success.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  12. #12
    Boolit Man
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    Yes, I was going by Brents example. I have 83 grains if Wano PP in these. Maybe Swiss gives more bang for the buck but I cant get it.
    In my muzzleloader GG,s bump up after sliding down the bore without a lot of effort.
    Most frustrating.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    one would expect wano pp to do the job at least as well as 1f swiss which has proven sufficient .
    the odg preferred 1 f for this job, and used between 11:1 and 14:1.
    metford used antimonial alloys in muzzle and breech loaders, but experimented with its time to "ripen", or establish a hardness.
    there is a good article on research press about metfords alloys.
    could your alloy be as advertised?
    yes your reamer looks to have a 45 degree transition, but that is obviously not the issue.
    gg bullets are harder to bump up than pp bullets generally, possibly because the grooves rob the bands of some expansion.
    those guys often play with wads to act as a seal.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    where is kurt when you need him?
    the man who has been around the traps more than all of us put together.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Keith, I had blackened patches that look just like yours and leaded the barrel something fierce! I patch to bore dia and seat into the case 1/16".When I increased the wad stack to .125 the problem disappeared.I'm guessing the transition from chamber to bore is involved,but I'm pretty new to this paper patch thing so I'll defer to the folks that have a lot more experience than me.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    so many factors to consider with ppb's. but once sorted out it's all so much better than greasers.

    when a completed ppb is chambered, [1] does the bullet enter deep into the bore, [2] does the fit of the bullet to rifling appear snug, [3] does an extracted cartridge show rifling marks on the patching, [4] how are you addressing fouling control of both the chamber and barrel?

    i'm casting BACO 528 grain slicks that drop @ .443 and with a double wrap of dry 9# rhomboid onion paper the bullet measures .445" for a nice fit to bore/rifling. 81 grains of lightly compressed swiss 1-1/2f under a single card wad in starline fire formed brass. the roller is a double set 45-70 pedi with a greaser chamber. the gun and careful loads have the ability to render under 2moa at a short 200 yards. my blown patches are relatively clean confetti.


  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Keith is that reamer from Dave Manson the one that Dan Theodore designed for bore diameter PP bullets? If so then it is the same one I use in two of my rifles. I have found that the rifles shoot very well with either Swiss 1.5 or Goex Express FFg. When I've used slightly slower powders I've found that ?I get gas cutting on the recovered bullets, at least with 16:1 alloy.

    I also get much better results with a 0.060" LDPE wad. I did some tests with no wad, veg wads, and LDPE, and the LDPE was the clear winner.

    I can post my loads if you like. I have a post on here that I made when I got the second rifle. I will find it and add a link...

    Chris.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Keith, here is my old post:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ad-development

    Chris.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Keith, here are some results I've had, plus a bunch of stuff Dan sent me regarding his experiments with that chamber. I have four rifles with that chamber, two .45-70's, a .45-2.4, and a .45-2.6.

    http://www.bcsingleshot.com/DansStuf...aperPatch.html

    I hope it's of use to you.

    Chris.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Looks like you need more wad stack, felt wads work well, or a larger diameter bullet. Sizing the cases, and then expanding them back so that the bullet is a very tight fit will also help bring about a more harmoneous outcome... Heck even Sharps reloading instructions back in the day said to use the "shell reducer"
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check