So paper patch boolits not supposed to lead up barrels eh ?

[Keith]

Could be Don, it feels smooth enough though. I will check it out.
I was blaming the Wano as not having enough grunt to bump up the undersize boolit with just the .060 card behind it.
When it had the poly wad behind it I figured the poly was protecting the base and didnt need the bump up.
I will see what the extra thou makes when I get the sizer made.
My wife shoots F class with a 6.5 - 284 so I have a bunch of her old stainless barrels here. I have to fit and chamber a new one every couple of years.They are usefull for turning into things that need a ready made pilot hole.
When I get the thing grouping it will be interesting to put it over the chrony and see the difference between the Wano and the Swiss.

[Keith]

keith,
before you trim cases, a study of fireformed brass might be worthwhile.
if fired cases show no rediction in diameter at the moth compaerd to a little in the case, and there is no sign of the neck being formed to the shape of the 25 degree transition, then you might not need to.
yes we can get swiss here.
there is a place in qld that sells wano, and it is reported that they are also now handling swiss.
possible a pyrotechnic company?
keep safe,
bruce.

I bought the Wano from a mob outside Brisbane called Combat Simulation Systems, back in 2016. Perhaps its them. I will give them a call later if I think the Swiss does better. I still have 3 kilos of Swiss 2F to play with. Its in a round cardboard tube type container. I dont think they do it like that anymore.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

huvius, some metford rifling had rounded profles, but others f his designs were square.
sharps rigby and remington were square.
henry rifling has virtual knife edges, possibly designed to cut through patches.
most modern rifling is square, and works well with thin patches.
with the old rounded metford segmental rifling, some writing suggests slitting the patches with a knife prior to firing.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Keith the Swiss will likely be a bit faster. But sometimes the higher velocity isn't the answer, and can be a group opener.
One thing I've noticed in using the Swiss and WANO (it's called Schuetzen here) the Wano does not like any compression, does it's best work with the wad and bullet in firm contact with the base of the bullet. Swiss can go do well in some instances with compression.

[Huvius]

huvius, some metford rifling had rounded profles, but others f his designs were square.
sharps rigby and remington were square.
henry rifling has virtual knife edges, possibly designed to cut through patches.
most modern rifling is square, and works well with thin patches.
with the old rounded metford segmental rifling, some writing suggests slitting the patches with a knife prior to firing.
keep safe,
bruce.

Point well taken.
Looking at no fewer than eight original Henry bores, some worn, some very much like new, the edges are not so sharp as what would be expected in a modern barrel made for jacketed boolits.
Of course, the Metford rifling I am referring to is the typical rounded land style which is very smooth with no sharp edges. I have an original Gibbs 461 No.2 sporter and a Westley Richards 1881 match rifle with this particular Metford rifling.
My belief is that these old dead guys knew more about making a paper patched bullet fly with black powder than any of us will ever know so why fight the force...

[BrentD]

This is an interesting and puzzling thread. I'll just make a few rambling comments because I don't see and instant solution here.

1. There is no reason to shorten the brass unless it needs it. There are lots of reasons, NOT to shorten the brass if it doesn't need it. Be sure you need it before you start. I feel for a lip or rim on the inside of the case mouth using a small pin or needle.

2. Cyanocryolate seals well, but if the rifle isn't bedded, using epoxy will give you a 2 for 1 advantage. If it doesn't need bedding, stock finish or varnish can be dripped into the screw holes to seal them, unlike Cyanocryolate. I like the superglues a lot for fixing cracks and hardening soft wood too. Minwax's wood hardener is another product that can do this much like CYA.

3. The Krieger barrel and "normal" rifling is fine for paper patches. That's been proven many times. But there might be something else wrong with the barrel - ie, damage or some serious imperfection.

4. Complicated wad stacks might be good for fouling control when shooting dirty, for making reduced loads, or some other special reasons, but they are not needed for top drawer accuracy with paper patched bullets and zero leading. I started using a complicated wad stack for a chicken bullet last year. I gave up accuracy for less recoil. Your gun should shoot fine without any such complicated wad combos. Wads that are 0.06" should get the job done every time. I think my wads measure .460" but I use them in my tightest .45 chambers with 0.450" bullets.

5. If it is ever going to shoot, it will do so with Swiss. I'd save the Wano for something else. Focus on the Swiss, because then you have ruled out one possible issue. If that gun can be made to shoot, then it will do it with Swiss. Start with minimal compression and work up from that.

6. I'm trying to convince myself that the lead in your photo is really just shiny clumps of fouling that, if rubbed with a wet finger, smear into the wiping patch. I'm not being very successful, but sometimes black powder fouling can look like lead. Whatever is causing that leading has to be dealt with. I don't recall what you are doing for wiping between shots, but two wet, one dry is standard protocol and should be good enough, maybe even overkill, until you get this gun up and running right. If you are wiping well, then this is a heck of a mystery and I would beg, borrow, or steal a bore scope and spend a lot of time with it. I'd also be curious to know where in the bore the lead is occurring. Can you locate it by cleaning just short sections of the bore at a time? If not, then shoot, clean gently, and bore scope before removing the lead.

7. I don't think the old dead guys had us beat in paper patching. In the last decade, we have made big improvements and I don't think we lose anything to whatever they were doing. There is no bullet, paper or wad combo that hasn't been tried many times in the last few years - we communicate among us better than they did too, so we learn more from what others are doing, and in the end, I don't think we have left any stones unturned. I also think we meet or exceed the quality of their barrels, brass, primers, bullet shapes (big deal), sights, and just about any component. The one and only advantage they may have over us is their powder - and I am doubtful it was much better, if at all. Of course, we will never know how good they really were. We know only a little bit about the best targets by the best shooters. If we similarly cherry pick from modern shooters, I think we would find very comparable shooting.

So, I don't know what to do here except go after that leading, if it is for real. Until you solve that, you won't solve the accuracy issue. That is just a really tough nut this time.

One last thought -can you make a precise chamber cast or maybe a chamber swaging that includes a good bit of the throat of the barrel and up into the rifling and then have someone with talent and equipment measure it for run out and concentricity to see if you might have a buggered chamber?

I wish I could offer something more constructive.

[Lead pot]

Keith your just going to have to do some homework your self to find out why your getting lead smears shooting PP bullets. If the patch is high enough past the shank end for the alloy your using lead should not come into contact with the bore unless the chamber end is ahead of the case mouth with a gap to large, in other words the case is to short. A 45 degree transition is more damaging then a 25 degree but even a 25 degree is enough that it can shave off the lead through the patch and leave a paper ring behind and that paper ring can cut deep enough to shave off lead the next shot fired. A case to long for the chamber will cause major damage to the bullet shank especially if you did not chamfer the case mouth. This will pull past the chamber end and it will crimp the case mouth going into the throat and cut the patch and it might even strip off the portion that is in the case. A roll crimp is death for a lead bullet GG or PP.
Below is a bullet I deep seated because I was having a lead problem with this particular rifle so I made a chamber cast to find out what the exact length of the chamber was and started checking the cases for length and a few were only .010" and less short of the 45 degree chamber end and this left some room for the bullet to upset into this gap and as it started down the bore shaved off lead leaving a ring behind. You can see the ring depression ahead of the patch in the picture below. This made me trim down some 3-1/4" cases I had to close this gap between the case mouth and the chamber end, well this caused another problem right off the bat. The case pulled into the throat and it tore off more of the bullet base back from the case mouth and it also could be seen on the case mouth were it looked like it had a roll crimp when the bullet drug it into the throat. I looked for this bullet in my files but I must have buried it with out properly marking the folder. I then trimmed the cases .005" short of the chamber end and this solved the paper rings to a point but not completely. I ended up making a throating reamer for this rifle and changed the 45 degree chamber end to a 5/2.5 degree compound throat and the bullets are now unmarked by that 45 degree wall at the chamber end. This was a drastic measure but it solved my problem.
Kurt

Attachment 214006

[BRUCE MOULDS]

we have all tried to help here, but brent and kurt have cut to the chase, distilling the essence of this.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

we have all tried to help here, but brent and kurt have cut to the chase, distilling the essence of this.
keep safe,
bruce.

They sure have. Thanks to all who have contributed to this. I have picked up a lot of tips.
The culpret to the leading I am sure was the thin card wads I was using then perhaps a too small bullet.
Made the sizer. The .446 mould drops at .445 so I am sizing to .443. The bullet I started with was .442.
I have had to chamfer the case mouth to a knife edge to get the PP slug in without tearing. Thats the problem with going bigger. I might be able to open the sizer half a thou more. We will see.

[Keith]

These loads are the same as the last except for the thou bigger bullet.
I am happy with the way its going now. No leading even with the Wano and gasket wads.
The verticle needs attending to but I would be more happy if I could hold 2 min groups. Its equal to or maybe better than I could do with greasers. I am not a top shot. No scope just an old Pedersoli long range tang sight with a Hadley eyecup.
. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

Notice the Wano groups on the left are a couple of mins lower than the Swiss for the same elevation.

Keith

[BrentD]

Keith, I don't see too much to complain about there. Looks like you have her going fairly well. Looks like maybe 1.5" group's for the most part? Is that about right?

Experiment with a couple more grains of powder (and compress back to the same point), and see what happens.

Are you using an aperture front sight? If not, you can probably tighten things up a bit more with a better front insert, if your rifle uses them.

Brent

[Don McDowell]

Looking good. Also looks like you need to run down some more 2f Swiss.

[Keith]

Brent, the bottom RH group with the Swiss and poly is 2 inches outside to outside vertical.
Also yes , I am using a Shaver front sight with his apertures.
Don, yes I should concentrate with the Swiss 2F and if Bruce is right , may be able to get more.

The loads with the gasket wad are cutting the inner wrap a bit but the loads with the thick poly are not so much.
I am trying to find a thinner poly.
Kurt. I dont think our ice cream containers are as thick as yours.

[BrentD]

Keith, thicker poly, not thinner. go for 0.060" or so. For me, at least, that works best. What is the wad's diameter?

Do the Shaver apertures every fade out on you? They have a very thin annulus, or at least the ones I used to use did. Thicker annuli will save eyestrain and produce a better sight picture in my experience.

[Lead pot]

Keith that's OK But I bet the Ice Cream is good
You got things together. Your on the way!!
Kurt

[Gunlaker]

Like Brent says, go with 0.060" poly. I've tried a lot of things in Dan's PP chambers and nothing has beat a 0.060" poly wad. I use the biggest bullet I can reliably chamber with either 8lb Seth Cole paper, or slightly thicker (0.002") Esleeck paper.

Over the last year I've been dry wrapped bullets. I think the rifle prefers them a little bit. Difficult to be 100% certain but they work very well.

I've got some rifles with the Shaver front apertures. I usually use two inserts at a time to get a thicker annulus.

Chris.

[Keith]

Keith, thicker poly, not thinner. go for 0.060" or so. For me, at least, that works best. What is the wad's diameter?

Do the Shaver apertures every fade out on you? They have a very thin annulus, or at least the ones I used to use did. Thicker annuli will save eyestrain and produce a better sight picture in my experience.

The gasket wad is .060 and the poly stuff is .120. Twice as thick. I cant remember where it came from but nearly out of it. It looks like the poly sheet that butchers used to hang in cold room doors to walk through but keep the cold in. I cant find a supplier of any .060 yet
The wad punch is a press mount from BACO. Nominally .458. All the wads thumb push into the case OK though.
Keith

[Keith]

My new bore wipes. Called" Wombats" after the Australian Hairy Nose Wombat.
Also digs holes like your Gopher.
I found one wet felt on front and one dry at the back works better than the O ring wipes.
I keep them in an Ammo box with plain water in the holes and push them through with a dry patch concentrating on the chamber.

. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

These I used today on load development for the first time.
One lot with a newsprint over primer wad and one without.
The one without was better and that with the Wombat tightened up my group no end.

. by Keith Cree, on Flickr

[Gunlaker]

Looks good!

Chris.

[martinibelgian]

Keith,
Seems like improving fouling management was the answer to your problem... With PP, a barrel cannot be too clean or too dry. As to wads, I use a thick card wad .461 diameter, shoved in a .451 case. Would have to measure thickness though. EDIT: measured it and it is .076 thick.
What you also have of course is that the use of PP bullets will gradually 'clean' your barrel from residual leading, which in turn will also improve accuracy with PP. That, and the amount of wiping required between shots