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Thread: My quest for the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15

  1. #81
    Boolit Mold
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    Bhuij, I want to thank you for your efforts. I too began the search for a decent AR15 cast boolit load that could get the job done for me about 4 months ago. I think I have finally hit the nail on the head. I am a gunsmith by trade, and a bullet caster of almost 40 years, so I tend to try anything that seems to have merit. I cast and shoot about 30,000 rounds a year, so I think I might have forgotten more than most people know about the game. And forgetting stuff aint' always bad! Years before PC bullets came onto the scene, I was searching for the magic coatings that numerous bullet casters were coating their products with. I was trying desperately to cut my production times for making copious amounts of gun food for competition by not using traditional lubes in my star sizers. Finally, the PC info hit the web, and I was off to the races! The "forgetting" part comes from the fact that you can forget about most all of the traditional rules and things that you learned the old school way. The best phrase I ever read on a thread about PC'ing was "...PC changed EVERYTHING!". I agree. Back to the topic at hand... I started down the 223 path as many have with the Lee 55-225 6 cavity mold. I used safe low velocity loads working up to minimum loads that would reliably lock my M4 bolt open on the last round. I like to use surplus (cheap) gunpowder, and WCC844 is everywhere. I found that 20.0g of 844 behind the PC/GC Lee would cycle reliably in a 14.5 M4 piston variant. After my first 1k loads through the M4 (aka, 1K gas checks), it was still accurate enough to clang 10" steel 100% of the time at 100 yards with a zero magnification RDS, and there is ZERO leading of the barrel or the gas piston system. However, I found there was not enough "oomph" to reliably cycle some of my longer gas impingement systems with that load. So, back to the loading ladders.... I decided to run up a ladder of 1/2 grain incremental loads from the starting 20.0g, up to the suggested "book" loads 0f 25.0g suitable for 55g jacketed ammo. I figured that I would eventually find that spot where lead would eventually start to deposit in the bbl and bolt areas of the rifles. NOPE! Even at full loads the gun keeps hummin' like a jug! Additionally, at 24.5g I hit the sweet spot for one of my varmint AR rifles that grouped 5 round clusters into .92" and .96" groups. BTW, none of the loads went over 2.5 MOA at my 100 yard testing range. I'm done with ladders at this point! So, for those looking for the details, here ya' go: Use at your own discression with all the usual precautions of working up to this load:
    FC cases, case mouths trimmed to length and inside neck chamfered to ease bullet insertion. WSR primers, 24.5g WCC844, COAL 2.13".
    Boolit specs:
    Lee cast 55-225 6 cavity gang mold. I use straight air cooled linotype (REAL lino with the headlines still readable on it!). At $3 a pound, its worth it to cast 15 pounds into 2000 52g slugs for $45. 1 light coat of HF red applied for 15 minutes in a dedicated HF vibratory tumbler. Toaster oven cured at 400 degrees for 20 minutes, then dumped and shaken to break up the clumps in an old wooden ammo crate before quickly cooling them down with a house fan. Hornady GC's seated and crimped in a Lee .225" push through sizing die (I used a .224 die the first 1K rounds) after PC'ing.

    I know to those who are just starting out casting, this all seems like a lot of effort. But when you look at doing 2K or more at a single sitting, this effort is well worth the time and $ spent to squeeze the last cent out of your reloading dollars. Casting 2K takes about 2 hours. PC takes about 30 minutes. GC and sizing takes about 4 hours. TOTAL = 6.5 hours and +/- $100. The CG's are the most work really, and the most expensive part of the process, going anywhere from 2.4 cents (Midway USA, on sale last month), up to 4 cents apiece just for the copper cups from Hornady (I will use no others, as they are far superior in my experience). YMMV....

  2. #82
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    * Updated *

    This has been a good thread to read with the 'stay indoors' order and all. I too have been chasing the .223 cast boolit ghost first for my Mini 14 and now my AR. The H&T Handi was EZPZ, 7gr Red Dot got me sub MOA all day long, cheap and about the same recoil as a .22 lr.

    The Mini 14 was fitted with an Accuracy Systems barrel 1:9 twist (OOPS! 1:12!) and was pretty interesting to tame for cast boolits, it likes round nose (Lyman 225462) stuffed up to the lands (.223 chambering) and only H335 will make it happy to hold the bolt open on last shot ( 19gr on the nose) though I like the way 22gr feels on the cycle and accuracy is nearly the same.

    My BCA upper with a 24" barrel 1:8 twist (Again, OOPS! 1:9 twist) (certified sub 1moa) will shoot Federal/Speer Gold Dots (64gr) all day with .75" groups at 100yds from a hard rest but CANNOT shoot under 3.6 moa with boolits of any size or weight.

    Having read this thread all the way through and reading the comments, I think I will give this another try (thanks Larry).

    Be well, keep your powder dry

    *I made the rookie mistake of writing down my memories of the twists without running a rod down the bore to measure the twist. No wonder the boolits are working in the Mini 14 and not the AR!
    Last edited by Dapaki; 06-21-2020 at 05:47 PM. Reason: OOPS! Corrected twist rate

  3. #83
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark1Mod0 View Post
    ...at 24.5g I hit the sweet spot for one of my varmint AR rifles that grouped 5 round clusters into .92" and .96" groups...
    Dapaki, I think your 8" twist is likely too fast for cast. My above rifle and cast loads that went sub MOA were from a 22" long, 1-14" twist barrel.

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    Heavy for caliber boolits will be more friendly with high twist rate barrels. 1/7 to 1/8 go with 65 to 75 grain cast boolits and keep speeds between 1900 and 2300fps. W748 will get you there with plenty of gas for the carbine and mid length gas systems in the AR.

  5. #85
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigep1764 View Post
    Heavy for caliber boolits will be more friendly with high twist rate barrels. 1/7 to 1/8 go with 65 to 75 grain cast boolits and keep speeds between 1900 and 2300fps. W748 will get you there with plenty of gas for the carbine and mid length gas systems in the AR.
    Agreed! NO JOY with the 55 gr lee molds (older 2 cavity and new 6 cavity). I am on the list for the Lakehouse mold buy, 75 gr, got an #8 jug of W748 last month. Its got a full rifle gas tube, I will need all the gas I can get!

  6. #86
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark1Mod0 View Post
    Dapaki, I think your 8" twist is likely too fast for cast. My above rifle and cast loads that went sub MOA were from a 22" long, 1-14" twist barrel.
    I just ran a tight patch down the bore and confirmed the 1:12 twist on the Mini 14 and the 1:9 on the AR. I will not be pursuing the boolits in the AR any longer with your advice BUT I will double down on PC boolits in the Mini 14 as the twist may be very friendly indeed!

  7. #87
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dapaki View Post
    Agreed! NO JOY with the 55 gr lee molds (older 2 cavity and new 6 cavity). I am on the list for the Lakehouse mold buy, 75 gr, got an #8 jug of W748 last month. Its got a full rifle gas tube, I will need all the gas I can get!
    I get some play time today, I will load a few and ladder some 70gr J-words today for S&G!

  8. #88
    Boolit Buddy
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    I really want to get some cast boolits for my AR going. Ammo and reloading supplies are getting tighter and tighter and more expensive and I want to do LOTS of shooting.

    There seem to be quite a few threads all over the webs about getting cast boolits to work in the AR. I've started a spreadsheet that I will keep adding things too whenever I read something about cast boolits for the AR. That includes both empirical results AND theoretical ideas. Heres what I've got so far from just this thread. I will be PM'ing various people to ask for more details for some of the situations they reported. And especially the OP of this thread, to clear up which scenarios were tested (including those that didnt work).

    I'm pretty sure we can zero in on the regions of space where things act a certain way and who knows maybe find a really awesome combination that essentially checks off all the boxes. (If you know of one lets hear it!!)

    The columns so far in the spreadsheet are:

    Report Type (empirical or theoretical)
    Twist
    Barrel length
    Powder mass
    Powder type
    Mold
    Bullet mass
    fps
    Alloy
    Powder coat
    Lube
    Gas check
    BHN
    Action (fully cycled, short cycled, etc..)
    Accuracy
    Gas system (carbine, full length, etc..)
    Link to report
    Notes

    If you want to have a report added PLEASE state all the things above so we can have as much data as possible as to whats going on.

    Again THEORETICAL ideas are valued as well! But please be just as detailed about them and the reasoning behind them!


  9. #89
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    To your table I would add weight sorting to within .2 gr either side.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    To your table I would add weight sorting to within .2 gr either side.
    as another theoretical entry?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy_with_boolits View Post
    as another theoretical entry?
    Sure call it what you like.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  12. #92
    Boolit Buddy
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    A chance link on Reddit brought me back here to read through this thread again. I'm glad to see other people got some useful info out of my testing, and as a data analyst by trade, I'm downright honored to have made it onto someone else's spreadsheet

    I still have the AR I used for these tests. It looks pretty different. New barrel, free floated handguard, different stock better grip, and finally got a decent LPVO on top. I shoot it for 3 gun matches now with M193 pulldowns and it runs great. It was a .300 BLK for awhile, but now I just have a separate AR dedicated to running .300 BLK.

    With kid #1 at 3 years old and kid #2 coming soon to a theater near you, time for shooting still isn't as much as I'd like it to be, but reading this made me want to go back and play with cast .223 again. I still have some linotype and tin set aside, and a good selection of powders. Given the fact that at the end of all my testing, the main problem was a garbage barrel that wouldn't shoot ANYTHING better than 3 MOA... seems like hitting 2 MOA at 100 with cast should be doable, and there are some pretty obvious things to try that I think would be helpful. A slightly larger bullet diameter, a slightly larger expander ball on the sizing die, and some extra care with keeping bases flat when installing gas checks, I bet I'd be able to get there. Would actually be able to chrono these too, instead of using curve fitting algorithms to estimate velocity based on 2 data points in the reloading manual

    Whenever I get around to trying it again, I'll be sure to post results here with all the relevant factors.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHuij View Post
    A chance link on Reddit brought me back here to read through this thread again. I'm glad to see other people got some useful info out of my testing, and as a data analyst by trade, I'm downright honored to have made it onto someone else's spreadsheet

    I still have the AR I used for these tests. It looks pretty different. New barrel, free floated handguard, different stock better grip, and finally got a decent LPVO on top. I shoot it for 3 gun matches now with M193 pulldowns and it runs great. It was a .300 BLK for awhile, but now I just have a separate AR dedicated to running .300 BLK.

    With kid #1 at 3 years old and kid #2 coming soon to a theater near you, time for shooting still isn't as much as I'd like it to be, but reading this made me want to go back and play with cast .223 again. I still have some linotype and tin set aside, and a good selection of powders. Given the fact that at the end of all my testing, the main problem was a garbage barrel that wouldn't shoot ANYTHING better than 3 MOA... seems like hitting 2 MOA at 100 with cast should be doable, and there are some pretty obvious things to try that I think would be helpful. A slightly larger bullet diameter, a slightly larger expander ball on the sizing die, and some extra care with keeping bases flat when installing gas checks, I bet I'd be able to get there. Would actually be able to chrono these too, instead of using curve fitting algorithms to estimate velocity based on 2 data points in the reloading manual

    Whenever I get around to trying it again, I'll be sure to post results here with all the relevant factors.
    that spreadsheet has a quite a few more entries in it now:https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ilation-thread

    I'm also going to embark on finding an accurate cast load, however I think it needs to be approached with some more structure.

    If the process you are following wouldn't make good ammo using factory off the shelf jacketed bullets, then it shouldn't be expected to make good cast loads either. There are some specifics to making cast ammo that you cant duplicate with a factory bullet, like the alloy composition, PC uniformity, performance at various speeds etc.. but there are also aspects that are in common and should be treated with as much importance.

    So I think a quantum leap up in process control and QC needs to occur, as follows:

    -pick a brass headstamp, and a good one, and go with it. Lets say lake city because thats so common in range pickups
    -trim/chamfer/deburr brass to length
    -swage the primer pockets properly
    -use a powder that will meter consistently (ball etc..vs extruded)
    -pick an alloy of known composition (in the beginning, buy ingots from rotometals so you know exactly whats going on)
    -measure BHN of produced bullets
    -casting should be done with thermocouples in the mold and the pot to keep the results consistent
    -powder coating needs to be done in a way that results in a uniform coating (both on the bullet, and bullet to bullet) that wont cause the bullet to be unstable or vary from one to another significantly. this may require some original ideas
    -if gas checks are going to be used, they must be installed properly (as you mentioned)
    -chrono all test shots

  14. #94
    Boolit Buddy
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    Responding to your recommendations in order:

    -I personally don't have the patience to sort brass by headstamp for bulk/volume AR ammo, but most of my brass is LC.
    -I do trim/chamfer/deburr all of my .223 brass before loading
    -I also swage primer pockets.
    -I use Ramshot TAC powder for the time being, it meters extremely well.
    -The primary impetus for my starting this project was trying to find the cheapest way to shoot reliable, and reasonably accurate plinking ammo through my AR. That means using the alloy I already have on hand, which is COWW alloy. I may at some point send some off for analysis so I can know the exact composition, but buying rotometals alloy defeats the purpose of the project for me.
    -I do measure the BHN of my bullets when testing for this project
    -I don't have any melt or mold temp monitoring in place at this time
    -I will be continuing to use the shake and bake method for the foreseeable future here. I don't think that my powder coat uniformity is a major factor in the accuracy of these rounds right now
    -I have recently taken some steps to more consistently and squarely install my gas checks using some NOE tools. I think this is going to make a noticeable difference
    -I will be chronoing going forward.

    It sounds like you and I may have slightly different goals. My stated goal from the get-go was to find a load using my existing alloy (COWW) that will shoot as close to 2 MOA as possible at 100 yards out of my AR and also reliably cycle the action. From what you're describing, it seems more like you're trying to find some kind of universally replicable load that has the maximum possible accuracy out of any given AR. I'm happy to contribute to your dataset, and will happily take suggestions I feel are useful to help me reach my target. But I'm probably not going to be doing this with the same amount of scientific rigor aimed at external validity as you are suggesting.

    Yesterday I stopped by NOE, I live just a few blocks away from their manufacturing facilities and storefront. Al gave me the tour. Real nice guy, really knows his stuff. I have long suspected that a big part of my problem with accuracy has been how my gas checks are installed (sometimes resulting in less-than-perfect bullet bases) and how much neck tension I have set. My bullets are sized to 0.225" (I want to try bigger), but the Lee sizing die sizes the ID of the neck of the brass to about 0.222". This makes for some very stiff bullet seating. I'm going to try sizing my bullets to 0.226" and using the NOE stepped neck expander that sizes the neck to 0.224" ID, and flares the mouth out as wide as 0.228" if desired. That should give me a better neck tension and likely a better fit for my AR's throat.

    I also grabbed the gas check expander that makes them easier to seat squarely, and will be picking up the gas check seating die that NOE makes as soon as he has one in stock.

    Between better bases and what I think will likely be a better fit for my throat, and using heat treated COWW alloy bullets in the neighborhood of 30 BHN, I'm hoping I can get the 2 MOA I'm looking for. If not, the next step for me might just be a heavier mold or an enriched alloy with a higher antimony/tin content.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  15. #95
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    You may not want to sort by head stamp but I would indulge the process for testing purposes as part of the solution may lay there.

    Annealing could offer some relief.

    Increasing your alloy content for the test is also something to look at. Rather than Linotype, I would look at tin first.

    I have not taken up cast in ARs much less my bolt guns in .223 but I am processing my mountain of cases in the cartridge and would offer one more suggestion: I would consider setting aside cases that present more force in FL sizing than the norm in a head stamp sorted regime. The issue is spring back with cases fired in extra large chambered rifles their first time.

    The alternative would be to use a small base sizer die to size a bit more affirmatively but for the limited number of cases needed for continued testing, I would just avoid the extra expanded brass for now.

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check