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Thread: My quest for the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15

  1. #61
    Boolit Master



    BrassMagnet's Avatar
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    This thread really interests me.
    One of my goals is to see what I can accomplish with cast in .223.

    I have yet to watch the videos in this thread. I will, but later, when Mrs. Brass isn't sleeping. She can be grumpy when awakened by loud videos!

    Your scientific approach is neat.
    However, even though I have not fired cast in .223, I firmly believe some lessons from firing jacketed bullets are also applicable to firing cast boolits. They may need to be applied differently to achieve the same results.

    Failure to properly prepare the brass for loading can destroy accuracy!
    Properly preparing brass to load cast boolits may not be the same as properly preparing brass to load jacketed bullets. Different techniques may achieve the same final goal.

    Books have been written on what it takes to load accurate .223 loads in AR style rifles. To sum up the main issues it comes down to consistent dimensions, consistent case capacity, consistent neck tension on the bullet, and not damaging the bullet's base during loading.
    These same factors certainly apply to cast, but implementing them must differ!

    My personal belief is the brass preparation is more important than some of the other loading stages.

    For jacketed loads, I full length size, trim, chamfer, and then VLD chamfer before loading. Any burr that makes the tiniest of scratches on a bullet's base or boat tail is a flyer. Add more range and add more error which increases to complete misses off the target frame at longer ranges.

    I compete at High power so my loads are fired for score at 200, 300, and 600 yards.

    Where I believe brass preparation for cast boolits must differ is in neck tension and in protecting the base and sides of the boolit. A standard expander ball will be too small for cast and the mouth of the neck will also be too small for cast boolits. Without flaring the case mouth, the case mouth will likely shave off lube and metal from the boolit. The case neck might re-size the castboolit.

    I suspect the Lee Universal Neck Expander die will flare the neck, but I don't know what it will do for neck tension.
    I suspect a Lyman "M" die will prevent re-sizing the castboolit and flare the neck, too!

    For my cast boolit .223 loading experiment, I might begin by full length sizing and trimming with a Dillon Rapid Trim and then use a Lyman "M" die before chamfering and loading. I will likely try lubed, powder coated, and Hi Tech coated to see if I can measure performance difference.

    Now for some quick notes!
    Most of my barrels are 1 in 7 twist. I have a 1 in 8 twist barrel. I don't believe I have any slower than 1 in 8. That could throw a wrench in my plans. I will likely try boolits from 55 to 75 grain. Some are RN and some are Nato pattern from Mihec.

    Since Varget was suggested for cast and I already have a little, I will likely try it first. Reloader 15 and IMR 3031 are others I would consider!

    You won't hurt my feelings by critiquing my comments and plans.
    Last edited by BrassMagnet; 07-29-2018 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    Brass,
    I have some points of interest .
    Cold facts .
    I have 1-8 and 1-12 , 22 cal twists .
    The 1-8 tops out at 2050 and the 1-12 tops out at 2625 for best groups per rifle . It doesn't seem to make a difference between a 22' bolt gun or a 16" gas gun . Same boolit same batch . Now there is a possibility that a change from H322 for the gas gun to H4198 in the bolt gun will change that as the groups were improving with the gas gun but I had a long curve thing going on causing a failure to function believed to be the case pressure to high when the gas port opened but only enough to retard ejection ......

    The difference between carbine and rifle length gas in a larger cal all other parts equal is about 150 fps from a Mossy 16 carbine to an ARP 20 rifle gas in 6.8 load for load draw your own with this .

    One rifle .
    I get away with 4 cycles at 80% FL sizing for several MSRs .
    I have fat expanders so I get by with a 20 mm bullet flair tool . They are .222 for my .225 bullets .
    I anneal necks after the 4th and 9th cycles and FL at the anneal cycles .
    I trim to .002 under chamber length .
    I trim after sizing .
    I load to magazine length , 2.285 for mine .
    Hold up the ceilings ! I seat and crimp together but there isn't enough crimp to do any more than just over flatten the flair .

    Multiple rifles
    I change in the above .
    I size for the smallest chamber , also my FL setting .
    I trim to .002 under the shortest chamber .

    As far as match prep goes I knock the burrs off the flash holes and swage primer pockets as needed . Fat NATO brass gets trimmed with the old Herters and the 22 cal neck reamer pilot after sizing new to me cases the first time .

    I use a NOE 225-55 @ 62 gr .
    The barrels are Mossberg , Wilson 2nds , Savage or whoever supplies ATI .
    The 1-12 is a 222 Rem in a Savage 340 the rest are an ATI Omni Hybred , Blackthorne kits or Axis rifles . The MSRs fitted and relieved for contact do MilSpec pass/fail just under 2" at 100 and just under 2.5" with the best cheap 5.56 I've run through them for base line and run in . Again cheap ammo and rifles intended as building bases not comp guns . The bolt guns do much better . With the 340 1-12" having turned in a .3 at 2600 fps for 5 shots and .67 for 10 the Axises and Stevens 200 are consistent .9-1.1 whether 5 , 10 or all day at 2050 fps . Again a switch to 4198 for the bolt guns may boost speeds .
    This may not make 600 yd 3" groups , actually not a snowballs chance with me and my gear .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  3. #63
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    Don't overlook RL 7 and RL 10
    Handgun/shotgun powders will drive you mad.
    All my ARs are 1 in 7 to 1 in 9
    Twist is too fast for the slower burning rifle powders in my opinion.
    15 + grains of RL 7 shows promise.
    I am not going to get a 1 in 12 barrel.
    I just want the AR to rock with a PC cast bullet every single time and have some decent accuracy.
    There are some threads out there where a few tried Unique and it never worked.
    Would be nice if it would work.
    Wnat to try RL 10 next

  4. #64
    Boolit Buddy
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    So I've been absent from posting updates for a while here, but do have some updates to share as my testing is ongoing (just very slowed down since the new addition to our family arrived).

    I'll post more details after my next set of tests (which are loaded and waiting for a good range day). But here's the super short version of what's happened since my last video:

    • I believe my bullet design is my #1 hindering factor. From what I have learned over the past several months, bullet fit in the specific rifle's throat is absolutely paramount for cast bullet performance in rifles. Any slop in the fit leaves space for the bullet to deform under the high pressures that happen when it is fired. Deformation (especially at the base) = poor accuracy.
    • For this reason, I have stopped pursuing high velocity (upwards of 2300 FPS) with my current mold. This is fine, my original goal was a cast round that cycled and hit at least 2 MOA with no requirement for high velocity. If I have to slow down to 2000 FPS to hit that goal, so be it. This is a plinking round. At some point I will no doubt want to try for HV in my AR using a better mold, but not right now.
    • Since my bullet fit is poor, the best thing I can do to limit deformation upon firing is use the hardest alloy possible. Through heat treating my pure COWW alloy and quenching it in cold water, I have so far been able to achieve a BHN of 35. BHN isn't the whole story on alloy toughness, etc. But my best results so far have been about 2800 FPS with these super hard bullets, hitting around 5 MOA. This was using IMR 4895. Not great accuracy, but quite good for the velocity. I haven't yet tried these hard bullets at lower velocities, but I suspect groups will tighten up. Of course, I don't think it's velocity or RPM that is hurting me, I think it's the pressure required to get to these higher velocities deforming my bullets. I have high hopes for a lower velocity load with hardened bullets.
    • I have jumped off the lube train. I don't have proper equipment for quickly lubing bullets, nor the patience for finger lubing or pan lubing in mass. I tried Felix lube. While it did work to prevent leading, it was horrifically messy and showed no accuracy advantage over powder coat. I'm back to powder coat now for the foreseeable future.
    • My next set of tests includes some 55gr FMJ rounds I loaded with H335, and some cast bullets in the upper 20s for BHN loaded to jacketed velocities with IMR 4895. The FMJs are a sanity check to make sure I'm not doing all this testing with a horribly inaccurate rifle. The cast bullets are basically an extension of my last test - my most accurate load was my hottest one (just shy of FMJ velocity territory), so it seems prudent to check if groups close up any more by going even hotter. I am not expecting them to, but might be pleasantly surprised. If they don't get me where I want to be (2 MOA), then the next set of tests will be down at the lowest velocities I can achieve with IMR 4895 without sacrificing 100% cycling reliability. If those tests don't get me to 2 MOA, I'm going to have to try other powders. H335 might do it, and there are a few others on a short list of promising powders to try.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  5. #65
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    I was able to get to the range yesterday. This wasn't my usual outdoor range with decent benchrest equipment. It was cold outside and I'm just getting over the flu so I didn't want to make things worse for myself. I figured I was doing my testing at 25 yards anyway, so why not just do it at the indoor pistol range? Unfortunately it's really made for standing and offhand shooting in there, so even though I did find a chair and was able to use my bipod, it wasn't really a good benchrest situation. Just "somewhat more supported than offhand."

    Although I had a wide spectrum of loads to test, almost all of them shot more or less the same, in the neighborhood of about 8 MOA.

    The two winners for the day were, unsurprisingly, the Hornady 55gr Jacketed BT Spitzers (over 22gr of H335), which came in at 4 MOA, and the lead bullets over 19.5 grains of H335, which came in at 6 MOA. I suspect that both loads could have performed better if I actually had sandbags to shoot off of.

    At this point, I think I have concluded that neither H335 nor IMR 4895 is going to be able to give me 2 MOA results I want with this bullet in this alloy. I think before I try a new powder (maybe something slower?), I am going to take the advice of some folks who are actually getting jacketed accuracy from their cast .223 loads with high velocities, and try an alloy with more antimony and tin. This apparently helps the bullet survive the jump from the throat to the rifling better without as much deformation or skewing. If the new alloy doesn't fix the problem, I will do one last set of tests using a different powder. And if that doesn't get the job done, then I will conclude that this bullet is incapable of 2 MOA at any cycling velocity through an AR. I know the bullet design is the weakest link, so I won't be totally surprised if that's the case. But I'm enjoying the process enough that it's worth it for me to check every dark corner to make absolutely sure I'm not just missing the magic recipe for a great, dirt-cheap plinking round

    Since I happen to have nearly 100 more heat-treated bullets from the same batch (so around 30 BHN), I think I will do a set of tests centered around the 19.5gr load of H335, as well as perhaps some tests using IMR 4895 in loads of similar pressure. Probably do these at 50 yards, and focus in on my shooting technique instead of some half-baked "bipod on a pistol bench" thing. See if I can't shave off an MOA or so. I might be happy with 3 MOA for a plinking load.

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    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  6. #66
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    So I took some refined loads to the range both with FMJ projectiles and cast, working off of the best loads from last session - 19.5gr of H335 for cast, and 22gr of H335 for jacketed.

    Because they were possible confounding factors, I removed the cheap scope I've been using and went back to peep sights on the carry handle, and took of the bipod and shot from sandbags instead. I'm not a good enough shot with peep sights at 50 yards to test 5 different loads with 10 shots each on one sheet of 8.5x11 paper, so I did my testing at 25 yards again.

    This time my best jacketed load was 21.7gr of H335 and my best cast load was 19.6gr of H335. The two groups were nearly identical: 6-7 holes touching and 3-4 fliers. If I remove the fliers, the cast load actually did better than the jacketed load! 7 touching holes from the cast load fit into 2.32 MOA, while 6 touching holes from the FMJ load fit into 2.8 MOA. This means that it's either myself, the rifle, or both limiting my accuracy, NOT my ammo.

    Interestingly, I also did two groups of American Eagle 55gr factory ammo, and both performed worse than 4 MOA.

    So now it's time to dig into the next two things that appear to be stopping me from reaching my 2 MOA goal with this AR: shooting technique and the rifle itself.

    I have two bricks of .22LR ammo to put downrange at 50, 75, and 100 yards through my trust 10/22 over the next month or two, and I'm really hoping that will help me fix my benchrest technique and close down my groups.

    Meanwhile it's off to the dark corners of the internet to research what tweaks might help me squeeze a bit more accuracy out of my rifle from a mechanical standpoint. I bought the upper fully assembled, barreled, etc. from PSA and it's an inexpensive one, but I've heard that they overtorque their barrel nuts, among other possible things. More to come.

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    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master
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    KISS

    Are you able to shoot 1 MOA off a bench with an accurate gun and load? If the answer is “No”, get some help. You are wasting time and resources otherwise in your quest.

    First give the barrel a good cleaning.

    Get a few different jacketed bullets and see what the rifle will do. Varget is a known good powder for jacketed bullets in the .223. This will give you a base line. If your gun will not shoot jacketed bullets accurately, address that first. Rarely will cast bullets shoot more accurately than jacketed bullets.
    Last edited by dverna; 12-02-2018 at 12:43 AM.
    Don Verna


  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy
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    Professor BHuij

    I don't recognize that range, where are you ?
    Curious of that Lee mold. I have a 22 Hornet and 223 Bolt guns that I think would benefit from it. My AR 223 hasn't ate any lead yet, but has good success with CFE 223 and Varget. I have been playing with the 30 Cal version of that bullet profile from Lee and came to the conclusion that my gun will not function with that flat nose so I got the NOE 310-165-FN, Meplat's much smaller, but I haven't had it long enough to get anything PC'd yet. What ever you do, DON'T get into Swaging your own from 22lr brass. You now have 18 years before you'll have enough money for that. Keep up the good work !

  9. #69
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yeah, I looked at swaging and came to the conclusions that there was no way no how it would fit my budget right now. Get back to me after I finish a Master's Degree

    The range I do almost all of my shooting at is the Provo City range in Utah. It only goes out to 100 yards, but it's really cheap to shoot there, they have steel targets and places to mount paper targets, and the RSOs are all a bunch of friendly volunteers. Couple of casters among them even.

    If you like, I am happy to send you some PC'd bullets for you to try out in your Hornet and your bolt guns. I have a 6 cavity mold and get my COWW alloy lead for free, besides that these are really tiny bullets so I get over 100 of them from a single pound of lead. PM me your address if you want some. I worried initially about the wide nose feeding in my AR but it hasn't been a problem at all.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  10. #70
    Boolit Buddy
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    I really appreciate that offer, I got all the lead I need tho. What I need is the same as you, more TIME ! Not enough time to play with all the guns I want to shoot. Keep us posted on your progress.

  11. #71
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    Yeah, will do. I may have a friend who is a better shot than me see if he can do better than 2-3 MOA from the bench with my AR. I also may test some alloy that is slightly higher in antimony and tin than COWW.

    But I have all but decided to get a .223 bolt gun and swap the barrel in my AR to 300 BLK. So it's entirely possible future tests in this caliber for me are going to be out of a Remington 783.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  12. #72
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    Having a good cast load that would reliably run through an AR would be a great thing to have access to even if you didn't use it regularly!

  13. #73
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    I am hoping that the current group buy from Mihec will be the .223 AR cast bullet that runs real good.

  14. #74
    Boolit Buddy parkerhale1200's Avatar
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    I love to read this tread, like every tread on cast for the ar.
    Instead of buying a other caliber upper, why not try a different mold?
    If i wasn't living in the Netherlands, i would gladly send you some casts of mine.

    Like rcbs or noe, for myself works rcbs very good in my ar.
    When you start casting, make sure you have a steady pass.
    Line up 4 or 5 buckets of water.
    With every 100 drops change your bucket of water where you are dropping them in.

    When your session is getting longer your mold is getting more temperature.
    And that will influence you re final bhn.
    If you happen to get a smear of lead on the surface of your mold the weight will change also.
    If you cast per 100 drops per bucket you are more close to a uniform weight.
    That's what i think, maybe its going to work for you aswel.

    I never tried powder coating, I think (especially for those tiny buggers) that they are becoming less uniform by weight.
    With bigger ones like the fat 30, I think there is not much of a problem.
    I will try this in some years from now, for my ph1200, when i have "the" time.

    For the pick up range brass, aldo you have made batches per headstamp, you never no how much they where reloaded by the previous owner, or what bullet was on that case.
    Just buy 100 new ones, or try to get 100+ from somebody that where fired one time.
    I also never use a crimp, I only take the bell strait again.
    In my Lyman m die i have a thorn that sets the bell and opens up the inner diameter of the caseneck to 225.

    I recently discover what my ar wants.
    D060 lovex 15,6-15,8 grain. at 110 yards under two inch groups. Iron site

    This is what I do and think, I hope there is some information use full for you.

    Congratulations with your offspring!!!!

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy parkerhale1200's Avatar
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  16. #76
    Boolit Mold
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    Very interested in this thread. Are you still testing accuracy of the 223 boolit? Can you do another video with your final findings?

  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hey guys, I just wrapped up the video series for this. Later today I hope to insert a quick write-up and summary into the first post on this thread for anyone who finds it later on.

    Thanks all for your help along the way, I couldn’t have done any of this without your insights.

    I think it's likely I'll come back to casting .223 for my AR in the future. For the moment, I will be limiting my cast .223 to my new TC Compass, and that AFTER I have a match-grade jacketed load worked up with either SMKs or Hornady match 69gr HPBTs. There are lots of things left to try to improve my results in the AR platform with this caliber. I believe a different alloy and a better barrel are among the top "good ideas."

    I have put a .300 BLK barrel in my AR, and I think that's my next great adventure... especially since I'm planning to form 1 a custom suppressor for it.

    For now, I have summarized my .223 findings in hopes that future casters who want to run .223 through an AR without piss-poor accuracy will have a good starting point:

    Last edited by BHuij; 03-10-2019 at 02:00 PM.
    Currently in the process of developing the "perfect" cast .223 load for my AR-15. Click here to follow my progress

  18. #78
    Boolit Man
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    I've been searching for a starting point to load my 223/5.56 AR after PC'ing my recently Cast 61 grain .225 boolits.

    I found my happy place when I finally came across this Post.

    Thanks for your hard work, your persistence and the data supplied. I will continue to watch this post to see if anything new comes along.

    I to have recently added a 300 upper to one of my AR lowers and am waiting on a Can.

    Thanks again!
    Salute!

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    Met some shooters that gave me a good piece of info.
    They said you don't need bullet lube when you use gas checks.
    Oh and by the way, they say cast bullets aren't any good in ARs.
    I wonder why?
    Sorry, but i am oldvfashioned and i still use bullet lube with or without gas checks on cast bullets.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alferd Packer View Post
    Oh and by the way, they say cast bullets aren't any good in ARs.
    I wonder why?
    Lots of folks like to say that. I think it's because they started casting for their .45 ACP or 30-30 lever action. There's more to be considered with a gas operated semi-auto. So, it isn't as easy starting out. Then they get "too hard for me" confused with "impossible" or "not worth the trouble".
    My first cast was for the AR. So, lucky for me, I had no idea it's usually easier.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check