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Thread: Anybody know anything about these things?

  1. #21
    I think the Moosemoulds bullet, and the Davidson ones have only one diameter, and if something similar had two, the engraved one would surely be too short. I'd sooner see even those started with a cylindrical ball starter and plunger. Some of the late scheutzen ones had a bayonet fitting to hold them on the muzzle, and compound levers like a little reloading press.

    To work the two-diameter principle with only the ramrod or a hand ball seater, I think you would need the portions of both diameters to be somewhat longer. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Philip Sharpe included a chapter on Swiss Scheutzen rifles in this classic Complete Guide to Handloading. in that chapter he shows an illustration of this type of rifling associated with muzzle loading Scheutzen rifles from 1840-1850 period. he indicated that a flat based conical ogive "Picket bullet" (google it) was used in oiled linen ticking in 200 metre offhand match shooting with a "door-knob" palm rest (depicted in the text), and that bores were wet then dry swabbed between shots. by 1865 breach-loading designs were taking prominence in the sport, mostly falling blocks in straight walled 40-45 caliber. by 1880 the 38-55, 32-40 (8.15X46r), and 33-40 had taken over. Sharpe, writing in 1937, recommended a duplex of black powder over 5-7 grains of SR 4759 in such cartridge guns, with no need for cleaning between shots when using duplex loads.

    perhaps you could have a cherry made for cutting an appropriate mold. I would start with a caliper and figure out minimal land diameter, then cast a "bullet" of any odd shape available in land diameter minus 2X typical patch thickness, drill and thread the "bullet" for a steel bolt for attaching a handle, and try different tickings and lubes by hand for best combination fit with some resistance, and make adjustments from there. wet and dry swabbing between shots will eliminate the variable of fouling build-up, so more interference by patch than would be typical in a muzzle-loading rifle would be "normal", in this case.

    in the pic i don't see any drilled holes in the muzzle face adjacent the bore that could be for a false muzzle bullet starter. i suppose a flat faced slip on socket type starter could have been used without guide-pins, though i have never seen one. with a conical "picket" type bullet you need a complimentary bullet starter to get the bullets in correct orientation.

    often bullets for such rifles were designed as an interference fit (like Jaeger rifles), actually engraved on the rifling by being driven into the bore with a starter and a rawhide mallet to engrave, then being pushed the rest of the way back to breach with a wooden ram rod. this kind of thinking went out by 1850-60, with the advent of cartridge rifles making breach loading more common and eliminating the need for loading bullet from the muzzle, though muzzle starting remained common in scheutzen matches with cartridge guns into the 20th century. Harry Pope and Schoyen made their bread and butter catering to this sport and practice.

    if you use this rifle that way, your bullet should be in diameter between land and groove diameter, soft pure lead, designed to deform into the rifling. Davidson shape with beveled base and minimal bearing would be ideal. I would go closer to land than groove, say groove minus 40% of the difference between land and groove.

    there is a good pic of a bullet starter in the link below. if you can have a starter made then you could get a mold made for an interference fit and use this methodology in loading, without ticking.

    here is a similar gun with accessories including a "false muzzle" bullet starter machined for orienting the conical, for reference:
    http://www.gunsinternational.com/gun...n_id=100980771

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/42-Cal-PICK...-/311635931151
    Last edited by justashooter; 02-12-2018 at 01:25 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks for the informative posts again you guys. I am going to try a round ball mould with light charges first. I figure I am going to need some thick patches to fill those deep grooves so ordered a .620" mould along with some .025" patches from Jeff Tanner. If I have any success, I may try a Davidson type mould only have the lower band made with a smaller diameter so it can slide in and just touch on the sides. Hoping this will serve as a pilot. I have a .40 caliber Scheutzen type rifle and am borrowing a .410 slug mould. It casts a smooth sided slug that just slides in to it's bore. Am going to give this a try in that rifle with a powder coat I think. I hope I don't disturb the ghost of Mr. Remington by shooting these in his barrel. The conical boolits for my newest rifle (this .62 caliber I posted the picture of) will have to wait a bit.$ can be such a pain in the butt-lack of it that is.

  4. #24
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    I have a Pedersoli 20ga round ball mould, just sitting on the shelf, waiting for someone to use it...
    I could bring it to coffee with me on Thursday.......

    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by obssd1958 View Post
    I have a Pedersoli 20ga round ball mould, just sitting on the shelf, waiting for someone to use it...
    I could bring it to coffee with me on Thursday.......
    Well, I'll bring back the 3- moulds I have of yours then. Would be interested to see what size they turn out to be. I'll take you up on that!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check