Accurate 12ga muzzle loader slug load?

[gpidaho]

longbow: Right now with the 20ga. I'm using the Short Lane 209 primer conversion that works pretty much like a hull cut off at the brass-plastic line. Load the BP then a stuffable wad (Sheeps wool for now) then the load of buck shot. The Rossi 20ga. has a fixed modified choke so if I want to load round ball from the muzzle that will need opening up. I can load round ball patched conventionally as is. Just getting started with this. Short Lane has videos up on their site. They also sell what they call a Blackout chamber adapter you load somewhat like a brass case to fire BP shot loads. Gp

[longbow]

Interesting! I have not seen those before. I have seen the cartridge adapters and I think there are other manufacturers of those but I have not seen the muzzleloading adapters or their "reloadable cartridge". Not quite sure why you couldn't muzzleload using the cartridge unless it takes a regular primer that has to be punched out?

In any case, the BP adapter is a similar idea to what H&R did back in the 70's with their Huntsman. I used mine a bit but got rid of it as I am a bit too much of a traditionalist. It worked well and was accurate.

A word of warning though. While I am not sure this is fact, I have read that H&R was sued for a death that occurred when a hunter had a hangfire and immediately broke open the gun, then powder went and the breech plug blew back and killed him. I do know that H&R changed their design from O-ring style push in breech plug to thread in breech plug.

I never had any trouble with mine and it shot quite well.

I did find that after a bit of shooting the fouling would build up on the breech face preventing the gun from closing easily so I used a chainsaw file to open a small port on the right side of the barrel to vent the blow back gases out. Call it a Bubba job if you want but it worked just fine and no more problems. The 209 primers may seal better and this may not be an issue but percussion caps on a nipple allow quite a bit of blow back.

You might try using the donut wad idea to center a ball that fits though the choke. That should work with muzzleloader though dropping a loose ball down the barrel and having it center on the hole in the wad might be a bit tricky and you'd need an over the ball wad to hold the ball in place.

The Foster style slugs should work much like a Minie though I haven't read any posts where people have tried it... or I don't remember reading any posts anyway (old brain). A soft Lead Foster slug "slugs up" with smokeless powder so surely it would with BP, then it will squeeze down through the choke. You would need pure or at least very soft lead and lubed wad under.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

longbow: I would be the last to criticize your "Bubba" fix. this whole adventure is sort of a "Bubba" sport. Most likely tinkering with something best left alone and with no solid purpose other than for the fun of it and because I can. "Bubba" or not we're dealing with shotguns in this instance that sell for $120-$160 dollars new. Bud's has the Savage Stevens 12s with threaded choke for just $151 cash. Old retired men need the enjoyment of tinkering to fill the days when it's to cold or windy to go to the range. Best. Gp

[faustus]

[faustus]

You can get the adapter from here:
https://www.selfrelianceoutfitters.c...loader-adapter

[faustus]

...

I am surprised there is that much difference between bores for cylinder bore barrels. You should slug and check again to be sure. I'd expect those bores to be within a thou or two whether they are 0.724" or 0.715" but within a thou or two of each other.

You should take a cleaning rod with a jag or brush on it and push down past the muzzles to see if it gets any looser as it goes... if so there are chokes.

...

Longbow

Ok, I measured again .... here the outcome ..... left .723" and right barrel .715" ...

-----------------------------
Left Barrel
-----------------------------
Vertical:
7230
7215
7215
Horizontal:
7240
7235
7220
-----------------------------
Average left: 7226


-----------------------------
Right Barrel
-----------------------------
Vertical:
7155
7160
7150
Horizontal:
7145
7145
7130
-----------------------------
Average Right: 7148

I also gave the barrels a cleaning and I can't feel a choke. However, passing a very tight patch down both barrels I can feel that the left one is looser .... the patch goes down all the way with less resistance ...

I guess I will see in the spring when I have to load it ... the same diameter round ball should go down the barrel with less force in the left barrel ....

So, either these are manufacturing tolerances or errors .... or there is a slight choke in the right barrel that I can't feel when passing a brush or patch .... ??

Now, I still need to decide what size mold to get ..... hmmmmmmmm ... ???

[gpidaho]

Faustus: Thanks for putting up the videos. That's what I'm up to. The adapters in the second video are available at Short Lane. I've had good service from them, shipping is usually free and fast. I get delivery of their products in just a couple of days. I bought some sheep wool on E-bay and use that instead of the cotton but I don't think that would make much difference. Gp

[faustus]

Gpidaho, I was thinking about going that route (Muzzle Loader Adapter) for hunting muzzle loader season this fall ... but our hunting regs up here don't allow it. That's why I am playing with a real muzzle loader .... oh well ....

[longbow]

Well, again, I am surprised there is so much difference in bore diameters. I would figure the bores would be reamed to final diameter which should put them withing a thou or two of each other. Even if the barrels are made from drawn tubing the inside diameter should be more consistent than 0.008" difference. That's huge in a gun. Shot wouldn't care much but a slug/ball does and this is a slug gun you bought.

I think I'd be contacting Pedersoli for an explanation on that as you should be able to use the same patched round ball or near bore diameter slug in both barrels.

If there is a choke (shouldn't be) then it can be easily reamed out but if the entire bore is 0.008" smaller that's a lot. In my opinion anyway.

All in all the Pedersoli looks like a nice gun and I really liked my old Pedersoli shotgun but that difference in bore diameters in yours is strange. SAAMI spec for 12 ga. bore is 0.725" + 0.020" so 0.725" to 0.745". This may not apply to muzzleloaders though.

You may wind up going with a ball to suit the small bore and use donut wads so it will be centered in both barrels. Alternately I guess you could use a thinner patch in the small bore and thicker patch in the large bore. That should work but you'd have to have two sets of patches/material.

Or back to the Foster slug idea and let it slug up to suit each barrel. They'd have to be soft lead but it should work. Like I said, my Lyman Fosters cast 0.705" so would fit your tight bore easily. Will they shoot well... that I do not know! I have not gotten them to shoot well from my cartridge guns.

For round ball, I'd go with the Lee 0.690" to try it out. They are inexpensive moulds and the new style Lee moulds are quite nice... or mine are anyway. Donut wads were available from BPI I think and/or Precision Reloading. They were felt wads with a hole in the center. Easy enough to make at home though. Tommygirl posted a thread on her home made jig for drilling hard card wads to make donut wads. Pretty easy.

Longbow

[faustus]

Thanks longbow ...

1.) I contacted Perdersoli about the difference between .723" and .715". I will see what they will reply.

2.) I ordered two molds from Jeff Tanner. One .715" and the other .705" .... That should give me lots of possible combinations to try in the left or right barrel and with different patch sizes ...

So stay tuned ....

Faustus

p.s.: One of the most accurate Foster slugs I ever tried is the Federal TruBall with the round polymer ball in the middle. I am thinking about cutting up 3 - 5 shells and shooting those TruBall slugs out of the .723" barrel ... just as an experiment. The calipers give me a reading of around .740" to .760" for those Fosters. I might file them down a bit and load them with a patch ...

[longbow]

Yes, I'll be curious as to what Pedersoli says.

Might be easier to paper patch a Lyman Foster up to bore diameter from 0.705". Different thickness of paper or more or less wraps would do it for both bores.

While I haven't tried the Federal Tru-Ball slugs, the best factory slugs I've shot so far were the old Federal Fosters... pre-Tru-Ball. If I could get accuracy like that from my home loaded slugs I'd be happy!

I like the idea of a Brenneke style slug for muzzleloader (and cartridge gun) but you'd never get one of those down a 0.715" bore even if they were available. They'd have to be a slip fit to work.

Good luck with Pedersoli. It would be nice if they sent you new barrels that match.

Longbow

[faustus]

Ok, I got a reply from Pedersoli ... here is what their customer service is saying:

"The tolerances are of ,005

The problem is to measure the bore correctly.
However from .725 and .720" we are within the tolerances."

[longbow]

Okay but your small bore is 0.715" which is another 0.005" smaller. That is well outside their tolerance.

You should slug the bores then check with a micrometer. That will give you a better reading... just to be sure.

[faustus]

Longbow, yes, with what I got there from Pedersoli my right barrel is out of tolerances.
I am pretty sure about my measurements ... I measured 10 or 20 times ... and none of the readings reaches .720" ...

However, before taking any actions about this, I want to shoot the gun and see what she can do. If the barrels are well regulated, I might be able to live with that "defect". I will see ...

That defect is not going to run away any time soon ....