Important info about Tin Star vs. Trail Boss for reduced loads in handguns

[Soundguy]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana. Soundguy, unfortunately Lee passed away almost a year ago but was glad I was able to spend a little time with him when he lived in Washington, Indiana.

I hadn't heard of his passing. Thanks for the post.

[Don Purcell]

Yes John, wish I had been there. I got to shoot my first bolt action for the .50 Browning using Kent's, the one with the laminate stock. We camped north of Dugger, Indiana, he and I and his son Chris. He definitely opened my eyes on how anemic my standards were on volume shooting that Thanksgiving weekend in 1980! Needless to say I was pumped when I got home and was determined to seriously up my game. Elmer Keith had mentioned Kent several times in his Gun Notes column and I believe mentioned him during a phone conversation. So I called Kent out of the blue one evening with a problem I was having (which he solved before I finished describing it) and we ended up talking for over an hour. When he told me he would sometimes come down to shoot at the strip mines around Dugger and Linton, Indiana we realized I was only an hour away and the rest was history. He changed my life and I was proud to call him my friend.

[Larry Gibson]

That was my point in the original post in this thread, and I made it specifically because I'd heard many people say things like "Tin Star is a Cowboy action powder like Trail Boss"...

Can you share any pressure data with this powder, since Vihtavuori doesn't?

Cartridge?

[John Ross]

Yes John, wish I had been there. I got to shoot my first bolt action for the .50 Browning using Kent's, the one with the laminate stock. We camped north of Dugger, Indiana, he and I and his son Chris. He definitely opened my eyes on how anemic my standards were on volume shooting that Thanksgiving weekend in 1980!

I built that rifle for him in 1977. It was pretty much a duplicate of the one I built for myself in 1976, except the stock was walnut/maple laminate instead of laminated walnut.

The experiences you had regarding Kent inspiring you to up your game mirrored my own from 1973.

[John Ross]

Cartridge?

How about .44 Special or Magnum, 45 Colt, and 45-70 with whatever bullets you used.

[Don Purcell]

John, I don't mean to intrude on this post but Kent sent me a photo of Elmer Keith wearing his "Keith Stetson" smoking a cigar holding a Century Arms 45-70 sixgun and I believe your .50 cal. from the above photo. It's framed above my loading bench.

[John Ross]

John, Kent sent me a photo of Elmer Keith wearing his "Keith Stetson" smoking a cigar holding a Century Arms 45-70 sixgun and I believe your .50 cal. from the above photo. It's framed above my loading bench.

Was it the one with the laminated walnut stock from 1976, or the much prettier benchrest quality second version I built in 1978?

Me with Keith and the MkI:


Me with the MkII:

[Don Purcell]

Looks like it's the second "fancy" one. Kent said it was the biggest piece of wood you could find for the job. The picture never fails to cause visitor's to say "My god...". My memory fails me but what is the history of the action you used? By the way I have two of your 5 inch .500's, one stainless the other two tone but with matching serial numbers. Reminds me, I need to get some more .500 cast up. All the best and take care of your back, Don.

[John Ross]

That was the thickest blank of Bastogne walnut that Jack Burres had in his inventory of over 10,000 stock blanks in 1978, 3 1/8" full length. It had beautiful fiddleback figure in the grain; he charged me $100 for it and I was glad to pay that.

It was delivered to me in college in Massachusetts my Junior year, and I opened the package in the school lunchroom. As my eyes lit up, a pretty, artsy-type girl squealed and asked "Oooh, are you making a dulcimer?"

She couldn't understand why the male friends I was with and I all started howling with laughter...

The action is a one-off, made from a 2 3/8" diameter bar of 4140 12" long, heat treated to 42C Rockwell. It uses a Remington 40X match trigger. It was made with the assistance of Art Freund and is an enlarged version of his design of custom benchrest actions, of which he made less than a dozen.

The barrel in the pictures is a turned down M2 blank I got from Numrich, chambered with a standard spec .50 BMG reamer. I used that while I was waiting for a 1:10" twist match blank to be delivered by Boots Obermeyer. I turned that blank to a straight taper and chambered it in .50 Improved with a match-spec neck using a reamer I designed that Keith Francis of JGS ground for me. Using monolithic bronze bullets, the gun shoots sub-1" groups at 300 yards. I never had the chance to put it on paper at longer ranges.

Proofreading this post, I just remembered a funny story involving this rifle. As you can imagine, it always caused a stir at the Benchrest club, and they asked me to shoot it at their matches as a sort of halftime entertainment. One member jokingly suggested I bring it to the upcoming "deer match" that was being held in advance of deer season.

In this match, competitors had to fire 5 rounds offhand at a life size paper deer target at 100 yards. Scoring areas were anatomical: Heart/lung, brain, and spine. I said I'd think about it and asked for one of the deer targets to take home with me to study.

Over the next few weeks I practiced dry-firing my 37 pound rifle in the offhand position. In those days my deadlift was over 500 pounds and holding the gun offhand wasn't as bad as I'd expected, especially when I laid the gun on a table for a simulated reload immediately after dry-firing it.

Come match day, I told the organizers to put me at the far end of the 50-bench range, away from the other shooters so as not to make them flinch. As I recall, there were 32 of us participating in this low-key fun match.

To just about everyone's astonishment (including my own), when the scoring was done I had come in Second! I later learned that Art Freund had bet $5 that I would be in the top 5, and the guy who had taken the bet thought Art was throwing his money away.

Good times...

[Don Purcell]

Now I know! Thanks for the info. That's a great story and one of the things that make this society of shooters so great. Take care.

[Larry Gibson]

How about .44 Special or Magnum, 45 Colt, and 45-70 with whatever bullets you used.

These loads were developed for CASS shooting as the VV manual start loads have a higher velocity than desired or used heavier bullets than desired. All PSI's measured via Oehler M43 with Contender barrels with 10 shot test strings. Velocities are at the muzzle.

Note: no wad or filler was used in any load.

44 Special w/VV Tin Star N32C;
WW cases, Federal 150 primers, Lee & Desperado 205 gr RF bullets.
4.2 & 4.5 gr TS less than 9,000 psi
5.1 gr; 12,100 psi
5.4 gr; 12,400 psi
5.7 gr; 13,400 psi
6.0 gr; 14,500 psi
6.3 gr; 15,700 psi

4.6 gr was selected as potentially the best load for CASS use with the 205 gr bullet.
4.6 gr/test barrel: less than 9,000 psi
4.6 gr/ 6" revolver; 643 fps
4.6 gr/16" Carbine; 792 fps

44 Magnum
WW cases, Federal 150 primers, Lee & Desperado 205 gr RF bullets
4.5 through 6.6 gr TS was rested in .3 gr increments. PSI was less than 9,000 psi in all loads tested.
The selected CASS load (6.0 gr) proved to be the best load tested for CASS shooting.
6.0 gr/6" revolver; 697 fps
6.0 gr/16" Carbine; 890 fps
In the larger 44 case TS did not perform that well for CAS low level loads exhibiting large SD and ES in both the pressure barrel and test revolvers.

45 Colt
Starline cases, Federal 150 primers, LaserCast 200 gr RF bullets
5.8 gr to 9.0 gr TS had less than 11,000 psi.
9.5 gr; 13,300 psi
7.5 gr/4 3/4" revolver; 696 fps = selected as best CASS type load with TS.
7.5 gr/5 1/2" revolver; 708 fps
7.5 gr/20" Carbine; 928 fps

The VV manual lists one load with TS N32C under a 251 gr LRNFP starting at 8.3 gr and a max at 9.6 gr. They list 889 and 1001 fps out of a 6" test barrel. I pressure tested 8.3 gr, 8.9 gr and 9.5 gr TS under Lyman's 454190s.
8.3 gr; 17,700 psi
8.9 gr; 18,200 psi
9.5 gr; 20,400 psi

45-70 (Trapdoor level) with Tin Star N32C Powder;
Starline cases, CCI 200 primers, hard cast 413 gr (supposed to be 405 gr), 24" test barrel
10 gr; 14,500 psi, 843 fps
11 gr; 14,500 psi, 883 fps (psi average is not a misprint....just the way it is sometimes!)
12 gr; 16,400 psi, 947 fps
13 gr: 18,400 psi 1000 fps
14 gr; 21,700 psi, 1060 fps
14.5 gr; 23,800 psi, 1094 fps
15 gr; 28,500 psi, 1132 fps

At 13 gr VV Tin Star N32C exhibited an extremely fast rise to pressure. With a burning rate faster than Unique that should be no surprise. I selected the 15 gr load to test in my H&R Officer's Model 1873 TD since that is the MAP listed for TD level loads by SAAMI.
The velocity from the 26" OM was 1086 fps. Accuracy was excellent using the tang rear sight and post front sight. The 10 test shots went into a 1.222" group at 100 yards. Even with that I wouldn't use this load in my TD because the powder burns so fast and there just isn't any room for error. Load density was low and a double charge could easily fit in the case under the bullet.

[reader]

I wish there was more about Kent Lomont and his shooting somewhere. I have tried to find out but guess there is not too much material available. Someone should write his biography about guns and shooting while still remembering details. The same humble wishes applies to John Ross.

From the letters published later, Elmer Keith wrote some comments to Lomont in 1966: "your firing 500 to a 1000 44 mags a day is simply a **** fool endurance test and never conductive to best work." ...and I bet with a smile on his face. I see Lomont was only 20 or 21 years old then.

Keith also mentioned there is a film Keith and Lomont working two guns at once. Lomont's dad was filming. I would do almost anything to see it.

[Don Purcell]

reader, you have read something that's been on my mind for awhile since Kent passed away. About the home movies. Kent told me he had movies of Elmer from back around 1965-66 of him shooting two four inch S&W Model29's at a gallon can several feet in front of him. He said when you timed it, Elmer dumped 12 rounds into or extremely close to the can in 2 1/2 seconds. This with full power loads. One of the last times I talked to Kent was at the Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot in Kentucky and asked him about the movies and he should transfer them to DVD but he though they may have been lost in a fire. I was fortunate enough to look through several of Kent's photo albums at times, and yeah, it definitely would make one hell of a biography. All the best, Don.