Important info about Tin Star vs. Trail Boss for reduced loads in handguns

[Groo]

Groo here
With what little loading I have done with trailboss , I would say it reacts as blackpowder.
Needing a good crimp, near full or full case and a hot primmer.
This should see similar pressures to BP and speeds BUT the pressure seems to come on a little slower. [16K to 18K psi]
Tin star sounds more like a smokeless powder [like we are use to] and not limited in pressure like TB or BP.
Like putting AA1680 in a 44 mag, you just about cant get too much in and still seat the bullet.

[44MAG#1]

Isn't there any loading data for Tin Star? If there is why not go by that? There will always be people experiment outside of published data. I can think of two,. Elmer Keith and JD Jones. There will sometimes be good results and bad results.

[Soundguy]

Thoughts on TinStar powder compared to Trail Boss
Let's switch to the .45 Colt cartridge with 250 grain cast bullet. A charge of 8.9 grains of Trail Boss gives 100% loading density, 16,000 PSI, and 900 FPS out of a 5" barrel. This is 2,000 PSI above SAAMI Spec, but probably not enough to damage an original Colt.

.

Where did you get your 45 colt trail boss data? I'm not at home to knock in a cast projectile, measure the case free volume and then figure a charge, but a quick look on Hodgdon's site shows a 250 grn CLRNFP with a starting charge of 4.5gr, velocity of 606fps, and a pressure of 8800psi, with a max load of 5.8gr, a velocity of 727fps, and a pressure of 12700 psi.

[John Ross]

Isn't there any loading data for Tin Star? If there is why not go by that?

Vihtavouri lists data for revolver rounds only. They provide no pressure data.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading...ion-reloading/

Quickload estimates their starting .45 Colt load at 17,000 PSI and their max .45 Colt load at 22,000 PSI. Quickload estimates of velocities of these loads are within 15 FPS of Vihtavuori's numbers.

SAAMI spec for .45 Colt is 14,000 max PSI. Refer back to my comments in post #1 of this thread...

[John Ross]

Where did you get your 45 colt trail boss data? I'm not at home to knock in a cast projectile, measure the case free volume and then figure a charge, but a quick look on Hodgdon's site shows a 250 grn CLRNFP with a starting charge of 4.5gr, velocity of 606fps, and a pressure of 8800psi, with a max load of 5.8gr, a velocity of 727fps, and a pressure of 12700 psi.

Those were estimates supplied by Quickload. They may or may not reflect reality. Using Hodgdon's starting and max charges, QL predicts velocities virtually identical to Hodgdon's, but the estimated pressures are several thousand PSI lower.

[44MAG#1]

Vihtavouri lists data for revolver rounds only. They provide no pressure data.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading...ion-reloading/

Quickload estimates their starting .45 Colt load at 17,000 PSI and their max .45 Colt load at 22,000 PSI. Quickload estimates of velocities of these loads are within 15 FPS of Vihtavuori's numbers.

SAAMI spec for .45 Colt is 14,000 max PSI. Refer back to my comments in post #1 of this thread...

Have you started at a safe load recommended by Quickload and worked slowly up to the start load that VV lists and watch for pressure signs? If you have what were they?
It would be interesting to know the results on your experimentation. Or have you contacted Vitavivouri about your findings using Quickload? If not why? That would seem to be the prudent thing to do.

[Soundguy]

Groo here
With what little loading I have done with trailboss , I would say it reacts as blackpowder.
Needing a good crimp, near full or full case and a hot primmer.
This should see similar pressures to BP and speeds BUT the pressure seems to come on a little slower. [16K to 18K psi]
Tin star sounds more like a smokeless powder [like we are use to] and not limited in pressure like TB or BP.
Like putting AA1680 in a 44 mag, you just about cant get too much in and still seat the bullet.

I would not put it near black for characteristics. As smokeless goes, its on the faster side, and it hates compressed loads, and loads as low as 70% free case fill under projectile are fine. Both of those points are opposite what you find with black powder.

[John Ross]

Have you started at a safe load recommended by Quickload and worked slowly up to the start load that VV lists and watch for pressure signs? If you have what were they?

No. I have never owned any Tin Star powder.

Furthermore, I have never owned a Colt SAA nor any other revolver that was not safe with loads of at least 30,000 PSI, except a J-frame .38 in which I shot ONLY factory ammo. There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W. The first "pressure sign" the handloader will usually experience with a Colt SAA is the cylinder letting go.

I bought the Super Vel ballistics lab (including pressure gun) in 1976 when that company was going out of business. I learned that flattened or cratered pistol primers indicate pressures north of 50,000 PSI, and pistol primers pierce at around 55,000 PSI. Sticky extraction and/or cratered rifle primers in a .500 S&W indicate you're probably at or above 65,000 PSI. SAAMI spec is 62,000 PSI for the .500 S&W and 65,000 for the .454 Casull and .460 S&W, I believe.

I don't treat Quickload info as gospel, but I do think it is a useful "second opinion," and if QL tells me something that is seriously at odds with published data, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. One thing which I have no question doing with QL is using it to identify powders that are good candidates for milder loads of, say, 25,000 PSI in any of the super magnums. My own knowledge base tells me to disregard any suggested powders that are known to work poorly at this low of a pressure, like IMR rifle powders or H110/296.

[44MAG#1]

"There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W."

To make a statement like that is kinda like saying anything a loading manual says about what to look for in pressure signs (and I most assuredly am not talking about primer signs) is like you pointing out another error in loading books.
I've reloaded since I was around 18 years old and I am 65 now. And I can tell you in a Colt SAA even with factory Cowboy loads there are sign s the case has been fired. Even in the clones one can get a hint of a sign. It may be a very, very, slight amount of case expansion but it will be there. It will be a measureable amount. Don't believe it try it with a load that is close to SAMMI spec on 45 Colt.
Especially with the way Colt SAA chambers are cut.
There again is the ole chronograph.
Now if you are talking Cowboy loads one might be able to catch in catchers mitt you may be right.
Talking like there are no pressure signs on a case in a 45 Colt until one Blows is ridiculous.
Of course if you are looking for badly swelled cases as you work up you are right.
It is all in what you look for.
Besides can you see a real Cowboy that would ever use "Cowboy" loads in their revolvers back in the day?
I know. I watch Gunsmoke and Matt Dillon wouldn't be caught dead with loads like that.
Rather than to point out that there are errors in loading data, what and who can we trust now?
Laying all joking aside, what do you recommend as to who and what we trust.
How do you do it?
Can we still use the old Keith load in the 44 Magnum? Can we not? What about Lyman recommending 25 gr H110 with CCI350 primers with the 429421 bullet also 13 gr Unique with a CCI300 primer?
What is safe now?
It seems that now things are more confusing than ever.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...n-Badge-Powder

Go to post #5 and read what Mr Gibson has to say. He at least uses strain gauges with an Ohler Personal Ballistic Lab to determine load data.
He is the one you need to be referring and confabbing with too.
I trust what he says more than Quickload. And even he is not infallible.
But I still trust him, even though with a degree of caution because he is a human.

[John Ross]

"There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W."

To make a statement like that is kinda like saying anything a loading manual says about what to look for in pressure signs (and I most assuredly am not talking about primer signs) is like you pointing out another error in loading books.
I've reloaded since I was around 18 years old and I am 65 now. And I can tell you in a Colt SAA even with factory Cowboy loads there are sign s the case has been fired. Even in the clones one can get a hint of a sign. It may be a very, very, slight amount of case expansion but it will be there. It will be a measureable amount. Don't believe it try it with a load that is close to SAMMI spec on 45 Colt.
Especially with the way Colt SAA chambers are cut.
There again is the ole chronograph.

SNIP

I think you and I have different definitions of the term "pressure signs."

I take it to mean things indicating excessive and borderline dangerous pressure that the shooter can see or feel just by looking at and/or handling the gun and/or fired cases. I don't consider being able to tell that a case has been fired vs. unfired a "pressure sign."

Chronograph data is immensely valuable in evaluating handloads, as you point out. However, it does not fit my above definition of "pressure sign." Accurate chronographs are now inexpensive enough that anyone who can afford a gun and reloading equipment can afford one, but I'd bet not more than a single digit percentage of reloaders own one and use it regularly.

We have been loading almost exactly the same number of years. I started in 1970.

I have a hypothetical question for you. Let's say we have a third person who owns two unfired Redhawks in .45 Colt caliber. He has assembled twelve rounds of ammo using new, factory-primed cases and cast bullets. Six cartridges are loaded for one gun with powder that generates a SAAMI-compliant load of 13,000 PSI. The six in the other gun are loaded to 26,000 PSI. You and I step away and turn our backs while he dual-wields the guns for all twelve rounds into the berm, then lays the guns on a table.

He challenges either of us to turn around, pick up the two guns, open them, extract and inspect the cases, look the guns over, etc. and tell him which gun fired which load.

Do you think you could do that? I don't think I could.

[44MAG#1]

Yes I do. First I would have a micrometer that reads in ten thousands. I would measure the cases along their length. Not just the expansion ring which on those loads would mean nothing. Even in low pressure there will be some expantion on the case. The lower the farther up the case it will be. In a Colt with big chambers and their clones it will be measureable.
I know as one who has done it.
The higher pressure loads will move the expansion farther down the case.
I am very familiar with the 45 Colts from the Redhawk using 415 gr bullet at a little over 1100 in 4.2 inches and down to a Uberti in 45 Colt with full Wadcutter loads.
In tight chambered FA revolvers it is difficult because the chambers are so tight it is hard to measure expansion even at high pressure but in a ruger in 45 Colt with the bigger chambers and the Colt and their clones chambered with even more roomy chambers it can be did as Festus would say.
Am I saying I tell you the PSI NO JUST AS YOU CANT.
But a standard can be set.
The standard can be something like Win. Cowboy loads or Blackhills etc.. without a standard who knows.
In any thing I do I fire at least a few factory loads to try to set some kind of standard.
Also if any thing seems suspicious I do a lot of study. I cross reference manuals, and I try to keep current ones etc..
I have bought two in recent days. Although with the errors we have nowit probably was money wasted.
Cases as they get thicker toward the head means that pressures must get higher out of proportion as the move the brass even a small amount compared to the thinner area.
C-A-U-T-I-O-N just because a charge moved the brass a certain amount on a shot may take a lot more to move the brass where the brass is thicker.
No free lunches.

[Larry Gibson]

I've done considerable pressure and velocity testing of VV Tin Star powder in most cartridges used in CASS including the 45-70. It is a faster burning powder than Unique and not really that "bulky".

To attempt any correlation loading Tin Star in a similar fashion to Trail boss is a fools errand and potentially very dangerous depending on cartridge and bullet weight used.

[John Ross]

Rather than to point out that there are errors in loading data, what and who can we trust now?

Laying all joking aside, what do you recommend as to who and what we trust? How do you do it?
Can we still use the old Keith load in the 44 Magnum? Can we not? What about Lyman recommending 25 gr H110 with CCI350 primers with the 429421 bullet also 13 gr Unique with a CCI300 primer?

What is safe now?

It seems that now things are more confusing than ever.

Here is how I do it, to answer your question:

First, I do trust proven loads that have been used for decades and pressure tested if those proven loads are with a powder that cannot generate a proof load if you get the powder charge wrong. Proof loads are typically ones that generate 50% more pressure than a max load. In the "normal" magnum revolver rounds, max is around 40,000 PSI, so a proof load would be 60,000.

22 grains of 2400 with the H&G #503 (Lyman 429421) is under 40,000 PSI and fills the case enough that if you do something wrong or your scale is off and you get a couple grains more powder in there without noticing it, pressure will still be nowhere near 60,000 PSI.

Funny you should mention 25 H110 with mag primer and original Keith bullet.

Back in the early '70s there were three different lots of H110 that had three (slightly) different burning rates. Remember that back then H110 was a surplus powder used to load .30 Carbine. In 1972 I corresponded with Lee Jurras at Super Vel and he told me that in his pressure gun 25.0 grains of the current lot generated 39,400 CUP using CCI 350 primers and the H&G 503 bullet.

This load was powerful, uniform, and accurate in all of our Smith 29s. A month after extensive shooting, my uncle and I ordered a Star tool in .44 magnum, and I asked Elard Mock to supply powder charge bars for 9.5 Unique, 22 2400, and 25 grs. H110.

Five months later the tool arrived and ever since then 25 H110 350 CCI with H&G 503 has been my standard load. I have shot over 120,000 of them and loaded another 40,000 or so for other people.

For "girlfriend loads" I use 9.5 Unique. I have never loaded more Unique than this in .44 Magnum. 13 grains may well be safe and proven, but IMO Unique is not the best powder to use for full strength loads for several reasons that I'll go into if you ask.

[44MAG#1]

First I have no intention of using Unique for full power loads. I was using that a s an example. Next I have used 25 grains of H110 years ago as recommended by Kent Lomont. I just prefer 2400 though.
Now days everyone is so scared of older date they would have to take a box of Ex Lax to use the bathroom if they used any of it.
And so it goes.

[John Ross]

I've done considerable pressure and velocity testing of VV Tin Star powder in most cartridges used in CASS including the 45-70. It is a faster burning powder than Unique and not really that "bulky".

To attempt any correlation loading Tin Star in a similar fashion to Trail boss is a fools errand and potentially very dangerous depending on cartridge and bullet weight used.

That was my point in the original post in this thread, and I made it specifically because I'd heard many people say things like "Tin Star is a Cowboy action powder like Trail Boss"...

Can you share any pressure data with this powder, since Vihtavuori doesn't?

[John Ross]

Thanks for the detailed explanation about pressure signs in lower-pressure loads using a micrometer. Very enlightening.

I have used 25 grains of H110 years ago as recommended by Kent Lomont.

Now we're talking the same language!

I started corresponding with Kent (and Lee Jurras, and JD Jones) in 1971. I finally met them all in person when my uncle Graves and I were invited to a gathering of Auto Mag enthusiasts at the Super Vel plant in 1973. They all became lifelong friends, with Kent being one of the groomsmen in my wedding. Unfortunately, JD and I are the only ones still around...

Lee is not in the picture below as he was the one holding the camera...

[44MAG#1]

I have a few of JD's barrels for Contender and Encore handguns.
Lomont did some pressure testing for me and I also bought bullets from him.

[Soundguy]

I corresponded with Lee Jurras at Super Vel .

Lee Jurras of the .41 Jurras mag pistol ( 41 JMP / Auto Mag )? Neat. Don't hear that name much anymore. Love my 44 AMP...

[Don Purcell]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana. Soundguy, unfortunately Lee passed away almost a year ago but was glad I was able to spend a little time with him when he lived in Washington, Indiana.

[John Ross]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana.

Don, does this pic bring back any memories...?