what charge throw is acceptable to you? fixes and musings.

[JBinMN]

Hope the above comments clarify. You are over thinking something and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I think I understand.

You took the particular "measure slide/bar" that held a set amount of grains of a particular powder, apparently by half grains as described & then used them to "measure" the loads. You also tested those loads for use at different rates of fire, or boolit weights to find out which one works best for whatever firearm you were going to use. You were not concerned if the amounts thrown varied more than a couple grains one way or the other from the "targeted" "measure slide bar" powder amount

Simply , using a larger "step" of +/- 2-3 tenths of a grain for each part of a ladder of half grain increments to suit the type/weight rating of the boolits & rate of fire.

I prefer to be more specific than that & have found that it Does matter to me in my particular ladder testing to further reduce that "range" from 1/2 grain +/- .2-.3 steps in a ladder to smaller .1 steps.

Which is what I think the OP was attempting to do as well.

"Narrow the range" of +/- to a smaller range.

You do not think it should matter. I think it does, as it has worked for me.

Thanks again for your repeated efforts to clarify.

[Outpost75]

Point is we were developing one load to use the same in eight to ten guns. In a team environment you cannot keep straight ten different loads for ten different guns, both timed and rapid loads and slowfire loads.

Everybody uses the same loads, all the guns are built alike, chambered alike. Timed and rapid loads would all shoot 25-yard X-ring, 50 yard loads would shoot under 2 inches average over a series of ten-shot groups, not less than 50 consecutive rounds without discarding any data.

All Master and half of them high Master and Distinguished level shooters.

[JBinMN]

Thanks for the additional info...

Your being specific & using the term "slide" &/or "bar" for the Star made me think of the MEC loader I used to use for reloading shotguns & the "powder bushings" we used to set powder charge & "charge bars" to set shot amounts. No weighing was necessary for those loads as the powder & shot was "metered" to within a small margin for error. A sort of example would be a 16.4gr. load of Red Dot was metered out of a bushing marked with a number ( #28) for that amount of that powder, while that same "bushing" might throw 19.8 gr. of Herco . The "charge bars" did basically the same for shot from 7/8 oz., on up, dependent on shot size.

Of course, shotguns are not the same as handguns & rifles, but that loading concept popped into my head with the clarification you gave.

As an individual & not a team, & speaking about handguns or rifle. I prefer to find the respective, most accurate load based on 0.1 gr. "steps" of the "ladder".

With a suggested load range of , for example, Red Dot in 45 ACP 230 RN of 4.5 - 5.1, then staying .1 gr. down from max & then stepping down the ladder by the remainder of the load range. Being .5 grains range from 5.0 to 4.6, I test 10 shots each at 4.6/.47/4.8/4.9/5.0 off sandbags/bench & at 15 or 25 yds for that handgun.

These tests were at 25 yds...

The results in the 45ACP I own & tested, was that 4.7gr. had the best accuracy in that set of rounds all reloading with the same components in the same manner. Then I retested to confirm the results & they did confirm.
I would not have found that "sweet spot" load if I had only used a range of 0.5 grains and going from 4.5/4.6gr. & then jump to 5.0/5.1 gr.. Being that I used a smaller "step" for the ladder of 0.1 gr instead of 0.5 larger step helped me develop that load for the most accurate with those components & that powder, in "that" handgun.

I will stop posting here now, as I appear to have already made at least one reader/member get confused as to what I was trying to understand & how it related to the subject of this topic..

Thanks again for the patience of any readers & for the clarification, once again.

[kmw1954]

JB I understand what you are describing and the reasoning behind it. Though I many be mistaken but the vast number of shooter I meet are not precision Bullseye shooters. Especially when it comes to Handgunners. Most today are Defense shooters and shoot to defense distances. Which is a whole different platform than precision Bullseye.

So let's break it down into 3 categories; Precision Target, Hunting and Defense. All three disciples have different requirements and expectations. A Defense handgun shooter doesn't need 1/4"MOA at 50yards because they will hardly ever face a shot like that. Same as a Long Distance Precision shooter doesn't need a firearm that will fire 15 shots in 30 seconds. As for Hunting, I would not go out into the woods to hunt with my 2.5" 357mag or my 4" 15 round 9mm. It's all relative to what the purpose is.

I made the point earlier that as a normal defense style pistol shooter at distances to 15yds I cannot differentiate between two rounds that are only 0.30gr difference in charge weight when all else is the same. I neither see on target or feel in amount of recoil any difference.

Lastly I do not test my loads from a supported stance or sandbag as that is not the way the firearm will be used. I test standing, unsupported with a two hand grip and yes I can tell when a load is working or not. Might not be as precise as what you expect but it does work and these loads also work in more than one gun.

Now the OP in his opening post states that he is loading pistols and is using a powder measure to drop his charges so I am going to assume that he is not a Target Bullseye shooter or a Long Distance Precision shooter.

[sawinredneck]

Now that this has gotten wildly off topic, I’ll try and get back to the original question.
I like to hold +/-.1grn with my charges. I guess I’m also one of the very fortunate ones as I’ve had little issue getting Unique to meter well? I’ve had no issues with a Lee PPM, the Dillon powder measure ore my old Redding Master powder measure. Once setup all three of them will easily hold +\-.1grn as long as I repeat my process. The silly Lee, even with its leaks, will hold tighter than all of them with Unique, that’s the main reason I can’t seem to part with it!
So if you’re planning on sticking with Unique it might be worth dropping the $25 or so and getting one, don’t let its flimsyness fool you, they really are very accurate.

[dverna]

I shoot a lot of pistol caliber ammunition and thus all of it is produced on progressive machines. I have over 15 lbs of Unique but have never used it so I cannot comment on how it will run in a Dillon or Star measure. (I got a good deal on the Unique but have not got around to using it yet).

Using HP38 or Clays, I never vary more than .2 gr. And normally, each drop varies about .1 gr of the average. I have run these loads through a pistol caliber rifle and I get 10 shot groups of 1-1.5 inches at 30 yards with unsorted cast bullets. It is likely possible to do better than that but I am not willing to weigh bullets or powder charges. Good enough is good enough....at least for what I use pistol ammunition for.

If I hunted with a pistol caliber at longer ranges, I would be more anal. I would use the same protocol I use for rifle ammunition in working up a load and producing it. Even though it may have no effect.

By that, I refer to a test I read years ago. I believe it was comparing weighed vs thrown charges for a .223 match rifle used for HP competition. In that test, the thrown charges were slightly better than the weighed ones....go figure?

[Outpost75]

What an awesome post. Could not be more true and it doesn't even mention ball type powder which dispensers like the Uniflow and similar types will throw with accuracy often at +/-.1gr or in another words more accurately than most scales will measure.

But everyone is free to do what makes them feel good.

Motor

Bravo Zulu Motor!

A double rum ration and a mention in dispatches for you.

I think you may be the only person who read my post who understood. I am done with this discussion.

[sawinredneck]

Bravo Zulu Motor!

A double rum ration and a mention in dispatches for you.

I think you may be the only person who read my post who understood. I am done with this discussion.

No, I also understand what you are saying, you set up for volumetric measuring. Set it up, throw ten charges to equalize everything, measure once to make sure you didn’t have a brain fart and load like a mad man. Using the pre-set bars is akin to the Lee dippers or the Little dandy rotors in the pistol world. Once it’s set and throwing there’s nothing that can change unless something in the equation changes, which most likely would be a new batch of powder in this instance.
As I’m using adjustable powder droppers, as most of us do nowadays, I tend to check every 20 or so rounds to be sure nothing has moved.
Your method is also why the Lee autodisc is so popular, once you have it dialed in, it’s easy to go back to it and hard for anything to get out of adjustment.

[kmw1954]

No, I also understand what you are saying, you set up for volumetric measuring.

Your method is also why the Lee autodisc is so popular, once you have it dialed in, it’s easy to go back to it and hard for anything to get out of adjustment.

Agreed. If I work up a load and find a 4.0gr charge works best but the volumetric disk measure or dipper will only fill to 3.8 or 4.1 then I will load to 4.1 and be perfectly happy and never know the difference in my everyday world. As I stated also I test loads freehanded and to a distance of 10yards because that is what I shoot. If I was consistently shooting to 50yds then I would test to that distance and set my loads to reflect that distance.

[jamesp81]

this is a little long, i'm trying to observances out there that maybe some else may benefit
or at least make some go HMMM?
yet others will think i'm nuts.


Pistol round shooters,
how far off does your charge throw need to be before you dump it and try again?

I've mounted a quest for perfection as i'm "OCD" when it comes to powder throws. (other stuff too.)
here's some of what i've done....and some of my observances and fixes implemented.

I'm currently using unique powder and a case activated hornady powder measure.

1. I tried to to use it as it came from the box with a really good cleaning job and after running 5 full hoppers thru it to coat everything inside with gun powder dust (i've been told it's similar to "graphite" dust.)
observance= the throws were all over the scale...5 to 6 tenths of a grain high or low.

2. I added a vibrator at the top of the throw to get every granule out of the measure drum.
observance= it helped but not too much.


3. So... I added a switch to facilitate vibration at the bottom of each throw as well as the top to vibrate the powder into the charge drum as well as out of the drum with some consistency.
observance= it helped, but was still 3 to 4 tenths off at times but would hit my target mark more often. the high or low charges were erratic ...even with a constant cadence they still occurred.

4. I took it apart and examined each piece ...on the linkage I filed or sanded all the burrs off and polished each piece ...even the end of the measuring stem.

no change

5. pulled everything apart ...again... this time i examined the drop tube that screws into
the bottom of the measure body. it appears to me that the bore thru it was done on a lathe with a small boring bar ...they drilled 1/2 way thru it ...then took it out of the chuck, reversed it then drilled thru to complete the boring step. i'm assuming that it was done in 2 steps to keep the boring bar from walking off center too far.

observance=the bores did NOT perfectly line up and created a shelf like edge in the center of the drop tube. PLus ...when the lathe operator reached the center he backed out the boring bar while it was still spinning , leaving a spiral record groove from end to end. Dear hornady , how hard wood it be to run a ream thru there?
sanded and polished to high shine with diamond paste. did the same with the caliber specific belling funnel.

6. examined the internal area of the measure body ...made of cast iron i think.
the inside was rough as could be. the throat and the area right below the baffle was as rough as
40 grit sandpaper ...then hornady powder coated the insides of the body red.
fix= i used a dremel tool grinding ball on a whip to smooth out the roughness and the i used a brake
cylinder hone on a drill press to polish the internal funnel and measure throat tube.

next came a cleaning job a surgeon would approve of.

assembly ...it was a pretty sight to behold.

ANd with all my careful work ....the throws are better ...but still will drop a charge 2 to 3 tenths off
at times...it hits the target number of 5.6 grains of unique often then the "off" charge might hit 2 or three times then it hits normal for a while...then off, then on, driving me nuts!

with the anal retentive attitude of achieving perfection by removing as many variable flaws that could mechanically be an issue ... my final observance is that the powder granules are NOT of UNIQUE size!
pun intended.

smaller granules = heavier load ...medium size = target load...larger granules = lighter load.

i think to achieve the most consistent powder throw with this measure as it is now , will be the use of
powder with very small granules like #5, #7, H110, win 296, to get the void in the measure drum to fill on each throw more consistently.




so .....how far off will you accept a powder throw?

another observance ....beam scales are WAY more accurate than a measure ...even more than electronic scales.

try this:

turn on your electronic scale...zero it with the pan on it.
pour some powder (any kind ...even sand or salt will work)

scale at zero...take a pinch of sand and slowly rub the sand between your fingers into the pan ...slowly! if you are slow enough the scale will still read zero.

you can do this until the pan is full AND it will still read zero.
even the scales on hornadys electronic powder measures will do this.

sorry for being so long winded.

2 to 3 tenths is as good as you're going to get with Unique. It's a largeish flake powder that doesn't meter as well as smaller grain powders.

I think you fixed your measure, but if you want more accuracy than that, use a smaller grain powder or a ball powder.

[Tenbender]

Buy yourself a Redding 10X and you will drop with in .1 all the time. This is a small charge measure. Use a 3BR for larger cases. I kicked around every brand of measure before I bought the 10X. It didn't take long after that to buy a 3BR. You get what you pay for ?