what charge throw is acceptable to you? fixes and musings.

[mozeppa]

this is a little long, i'm trying to observances out there that maybe some else may benefit
or at least make some go HMMM?
yet others will think i'm nuts.


Pistol round shooters,
how far off does your charge throw need to be before you dump it and try again?

I've mounted a quest for perfection as i'm "OCD" when it comes to powder throws. (other stuff too.)
here's some of what i've done....and some of my observances and fixes implemented.

I'm currently using unique powder and a case activated hornady powder measure.

1. I tried to to use it as it came from the box with a really good cleaning job and after running 5 full hoppers thru it to coat everything inside with gun powder dust (i've been told it's similar to "graphite" dust.)
observance= the throws were all over the scale...5 to 6 tenths of a grain high or low.

2. I added a vibrator at the top of the throw to get every granule out of the measure drum.
observance= it helped but not too much.


3. So... I added a switch to facilitate vibration at the bottom of each throw as well as the top to vibrate the powder into the charge drum as well as out of the drum with some consistency.
observance= it helped, but was still 3 to 4 tenths off at times but would hit my target mark more often. the high or low charges were erratic ...even with a constant cadence they still occurred.

4. I took it apart and examined each piece ...on the linkage I filed or sanded all the burrs off and polished each piece ...even the end of the measuring stem.

no change

5. pulled everything apart ...again... this time i examined the drop tube that screws into
the bottom of the measure body. it appears to me that the bore thru it was done on a lathe with a small boring bar ...they drilled 1/2 way thru it ...then took it out of the chuck, reversed it then drilled thru to complete the boring step. i'm assuming that it was done in 2 steps to keep the boring bar from walking off center too far.

observance=the bores did NOT perfectly line up and created a shelf like edge in the center of the drop tube. PLus ...when the lathe operator reached the center he backed out the boring bar while it was still spinning , leaving a spiral record groove from end to end. Dear hornady , how hard wood it be to run a ream thru there?
sanded and polished to high shine with diamond paste. did the same with the caliber specific belling funnel.

6. examined the internal area of the measure body ...made of cast iron i think.
the inside was rough as could be. the throat and the area right below the baffle was as rough as
40 grit sandpaper ...then hornady powder coated the insides of the body red.
fix= i used a dremel tool grinding ball on a whip to smooth out the roughness and the i used a brake
cylinder hone on a drill press to polish the internal funnel and measure throat tube.

next came a cleaning job a surgeon would approve of.

assembly ...it was a pretty sight to behold.

ANd with all my careful work ....the throws are better ...but still will drop a charge 2 to 3 tenths off
at times...it hits the target number of 5.6 grains of unique often then the "off" charge might hit 2 or three times then it hits normal for a while...then off, then on, driving me nuts!

with the anal retentive attitude of achieving perfection by removing as many variable flaws that could mechanically be an issue ... my final observance is that the powder granules are NOT of UNIQUE size!
pun intended.

smaller granules = heavier load ...medium size = target load...larger granules = lighter load.

i think to achieve the most consistent powder throw with this measure as it is now , will be the use of
powder with very small granules like #5, #7, H110, win 296, to get the void in the measure drum to fill on each throw more consistently.




so .....how far off will you accept a powder throw?

another observance ....beam scales are WAY more accurate than a measure ...even more than electronic scales.

try this:

turn on your electronic scale...zero it with the pan on it.
pour some powder (any kind ...even sand or salt will work)

scale at zero...take a pinch of sand and slowly rub the sand between your fingers into the pan ...slowly! if you are slow enough the scale will still read zero.

you can do this until the pan is full AND it will still read zero.
even the scales on hornadys electronic powder measures will do this.

sorry for being so long winded.

[silhouette_shooter]

I use a powder scoop with Unique, it frequently hangs up in the drop tube of my Little Dandy. And my RCBS Uniflow. Other than that . . . more than one tenth of a grain is bad ju ju.

[Steppapajon]

I just weigh everything. I enjoy the loading as much as the shooting. One required the other so a win win in my book.

[Kraschenbirn]

Electronic measures aren't my thing. Had one maybe a year after they hit the market and sold it after only two or three loading sessions: a) too slow and b) accuracy not up to my standard. For 'rifle' powders, I've yet to find anything to match the old Belding & Mull for repeatable accuracy. I've added a vibrator to mine and, as a test, dropped 10 consecutive charges of 32.5 gr H4895 (weighed on my RCBS 10-10) with max. variance +/- .1 gr. Ran same test using 25.5 gr IMR4198...same result. With ball powders like WW760, I get, essentially, ZERO variance.

For 'Pistol' powders, like Unique or AA#5...the two I use the most...the Dillon measures on my SDB and upgraded RL450 will maintain +/- .2 gr so long as I manage the level in the powder reservoir properly. FWIW, though...I've polished/shimmed/graphited the innards of all my Dillon measures and, for my 'standard' charges, fabricated my own fixed volume charge bars.

Bill

[TNsailorman]

I use both Lee Scoops and powder measures to throw the charge I want onto a scale less about .2 and then trickle the rest of the charge onto the scale until it reads dead on. I do not use a charge that does not read the exact amount of powder I want for that cartridge. Yes I weigh each and every charge I load. Maybe It is overkill but that is just me. my experience anyway, james

[str8wal]

I'm currently using unique powder and a case activated hornady powder measure.

If you are gonna use a powder measure I'd suggest changing powders.

[ascast]

I'm not a shrink, but I think that your posting this means you don't have OCD, just a half tad off

[country gent]

Mozeppa,
I did the same with an rcbs uniflow only I went the other way. In my checking I found the drum housings hole was out of round and had some extra clearance, the flow areas were rough and grabby. the drum was smooth but not true as to round and flat surfaces. the drum also had a lot of side play in operation. The fit of the measure stem was poor.

I set the cast iron housing up in a jig grinder and cleaned up the drum hole to round and true it is now very smooth and round with in .0001. I then set it up in the surface grinder and ground the sides of the housing smooth flat and parallel to each other.. Last I reamed the flow holes with a taper pin reamer so they got bigger as the powder dropped. just enough to clean up then a polish on these surfaces. A wood dowel turned to match and lapping compound. Last on the housing was a new drop spout turned from aluminum and finished and fit.

The drum was set aside and a new drum turned up with a shoulder on one side. this was turned .010 large the meter hole machined .010 small and holes drilled and tapped. A side plate was made up also. These parts were hardened to 48-50 rc then ground to size finish. the drum has .0003 clearance the shuoulder is square to the drum and the drum is flat and smooth no ridges or high spots. the drum was ground so that the side plate screwed down tight had only .002 end play. the meter hole was ground to the size of the micrometer adjust conversion that was added. And fitted into it. all sharp edges were broken but on the meter hole It was deburred but left sharp. On assembly it was very smooth operating with no binding or tight spots. no clerances big enough to grind or pinch powder granuales and a very good looking measure.

I also fabricated a insert for the hopper that gave a double chamber similar to the belding and mull measure to take the hopper level out of the system.

With some powders it does very good with others it still varies a little but not as bad. This mesure has several lunch hours of time in it. It is better, the micrometer adjust made it easier to reset to a given charge. And it is very smooth and easy operating. It does a good job. And is close to my 2 harrels measures.

The powder measure needs consistant operation of it. I believe that's one reason the press mounted seem to run better is the consistency of the press operating them. Powder type granual shape and density play a big role also. A light fluffy powder just dosnt flow as well as a heavy ( denser) tick or ball powder. The fluffy powders don't pack as well into the measures either a flat grain may lay flat or on edge giving different airspaces. Ball powders flow and fill the same every time better. stick powders are the same its how they stack in. Think of stick powders as logs a load of wood stacked takes way less room that when thrown in a pile. One thing a baffle or the double chambers do is to alighn the grains more so.
I have thought about a small spiral channel to the measure drum to "spin" the powder in but then bridging and packing become an issue

[mtgrs737]

Love Unique, but if you want consistent drops then give W231 a try, it is the most consistent dropping powder I have found. I also like Alliant 20/28 for it's consistent drops and it is similar to Unique in speed but you would need to contact Alliant with any load you would want to try.

[kmw1954]

Tolerance. We all set one at some point.

Pistols, I shoot with 3 different powders; HP-38, AA#5 and Ramshot Silhouette. They are all fine grained powders and meter well. With these powers I have found I can hold pretty consistent to within 0.10gr with the Lee Disk measure.. Also while working up loads I started working in 0.1gr increments from start to max. I could not tell the difference in felt recoil or point of impact within 0.2gr with any of these powders. So a 0.2gr spread is my set tolerance for these powders.

Also I have found that with volumetric measures they will tend to vary to the light side rather than to the heavy side of the target weight.

[Wayne Smith]

Unique is the powder that I will ONLY use in the B&M measure. It is inconsistent and hangs up in all of my other seven powder measures!

It's more the powder and less the measure, although you did a great job on the measure and increased it's utility and value immensely.

[mdi]

Neither of my main powder measures will be much less than .25 to .3 grains off with Unique (Lee PPM and a C-H 502), as consistent use of the powder measure helps greatly (the exact same motion, same speed, etc.). But Unique, being a flake powder, just doesn't meter as well as others. When I'm working up a load, or just reloading for "fun", I weigh every charge. Powder measure set .3-.5 below target charge and trickle up. No big deal as I'm set up for that process and have done it thousands of times, and it isn't too slow for me...

[JBinMN]

When I'm working up a load, or just reloading for "fun", I weigh every charge. Powder measure set .3-.5 below target charge and trickle up. No big deal as I'm set up for that process and have done it thousands of times, and it isn't too slow for me...

Ditto, with the exception of I try to meter the charge at .2 or less then trickle up. Regardless of powder used. I am "particular" that way.. Then again, I ladder test in 0.1 grain increments also, so maybe I am just a bit OCD/"picky" about things when I reload. I figure the, "Aim small, Hit small" concept works in the reloading room as well as when shooting. That's just me, as YMMV, of course.

[Bmi48219]

Guess I'm lucky. I measure with an old Lyman 55 (doesn't have the adjust screw) & check with a Redding #2 scale. My loading bench is in a un-airconditioned garage in south Florida. Used Unique for years, switched to TiteGroup for same cartridges when Unique was hard to find at a reasonable price. I weigh 33% of loads measured. The Lyman stays within one half of one tenth grain (I think that would read .05 grain) with both powders. As long as I keep the hopper at least 1/2 full. I use the rapper once after dump & again once when the powder chamber is in fill position.

But on one loading session last year I was getting wild weight swings up to .5 grain with TiteGroup. Drove me crazy for a while until I noticed a small spider was trying to build a web on my powder scale pan swing. I weigh a load, fill a case, weigh another and let it sit on scale until I've measured/ filled 3 cases, then fill the next case with the charge that's been sitting on the scale. He (or she) had enough time between the charges I weighed to get started lashing my pan down before I used the weighed load sitting on it.

[DCM]

Excellent write up with Lots of useful info. Thanks for sharing.
As someone else mentioned I also use different powder measures for different powders.
I found the Hornady to work best with ball powders, the Lee perfect powder measure works the best with stick powders and much better than ones costing 10 X the price for that purpose. I got to try a friends $250 measure and found the Lee to work way better for stick powders. Transfer bar types with baffles seem to work well with flake powder.

[rmcc]

2nd on B&M. If you want consistent, get a B&M. Especially with "Lincoln log" powders!!

[Hick]

I mostly shoot offhand for pleasure, which means my accuracy is limited. I've found no problems wiht loads being off as long as its within half a grain. For some of my pistol loads I use 700x-- and with the RCBS measure at light load ( 4 or 5 grains) it does vary by half a grain. I hav e a powder trickler for times when I really want precision, but don's use it often. When I qualified for my concealed carry I had to place 30 rounds in the 9 ring at 7 yards. I allowed the powder load to be within half a grain out of 4 grains and it only took 31 shots to get 30 for qualifying. So, I figure half a grain is close enough in my 38 special.

[tazman]

I won't use flaky powders that will throw inconsistent charges.
I use small grain powders and they all drop within 1/10th of a grain using my Lee Pro Autodisk.
After hearing all the horror stories about Unique and it's problems in measures, I simply don't use it.

[farmerjim]

I use a Lee auto drum. I do not load unique, but with the flake powders I am usually within 0.1 grains, sometimes 0.2. rare, rare 0.3. I usually use herco for most of my pistol loads, and it is so fluffy that my loads nearly fill the case. I can see a .03 + or -.
With the stick powders I like varget in my 223's because the powder charge I use comes into the neck where I can see a small difference in volume.
Again, I do get 0.1 to 0.3 grains variance, but not many 0.3.
All my longer range hunting loads are dropped light and trickled to the exact charge.
I find the lee auto drum to be highly consistent.
The lee auto disk is fine with one layer but it varies too much when they are stacked.

[jmort]

I am good with +/- .2
If you own a Lee Auto Drum drop 10 charges and divided by 10
It is like magic, you will be dead-nuts on and the charges will be +/- .2
Crazy deal
I can live with variance as I never red-line loads
I go for the practical not perfection