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Thread: Alox lube and accuracy

  1. #1
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    Alox lube and accuracy

    Hello friends,

    I have been using straight Alox from Lee, 45-45-10 and BLL for some time with good results.

    I use it on plain based bullets and gas checked.

    In my Marlin 1894C I use mostly plain base bullets loaded to 1300 fps. They are plinkers. I go through 50-100 in a typical range session.

    I use to clean my bore with Hoppe's and a brush after every range session. But I have been trying something different lately.

    When I get my rifle home I run a dry patch then a oiled patch down the bore and that's it. The bore looks clean. But my accuracy is becoming erratic. My Marlin that used to shoot into a 2" orange sticker at 50 yards is now unpredictable.

    My question is this: How many rounds are you guys able to shoot with Alox based lubes before accuracy falls off? I have read that some guys just leave their bores alone and they have no change in accuracy.

    I have checked my crimp adjustment, OAL, just about everything that I can think of.

    I don't have a problem going back to cleaning after every 100 rounds. Is that the source of my problems?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Your Marlin has a micro groove barrel, right? I never owned a micro groove but I know from reading here they behave different from a conventional barrel. Since you changed nothing else, if I read your post right, go back to cleaning and see if your problem goes away. As to how many rounds until accuracy goes depends on how much accuracy you need and will vary from gun to gun. Get the barrel clean then keep a round count. When the accuracy is unacceptable clean maybe 20 to 50 rounds before that point.

  3. #3
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    ShooterAZ's Avatar
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    I have put hundreds of rounds downrange in several different rifles using alox. No noticeable loss of accuracy, but none of them are microgroove barrels either. I would go back to the Hoppes after each time to the range, if that was working for you. I do the same, but I usually don't use a brush. I give it an overnight soak with Hoppes (won't harm the bore), then a couple of patches the next day is usually all I need to do.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    I use BLL and only ocassionally run 1 wet patch of atf oil through the bore. I will follow that with one dry patch before shooting again.
    I don't surgically clean the bore with cast, as i never have leading with the BLL....just an ocassional 1 wet atf patch.

    Most of the time i just leave it in the fired condition unless i've been out in rainy or real humid weather. I've never had erratic accuracy with BLL cleaned or uncleaned. I really haven't tested 45/45/10, so can't say on that one.

    I do always clean my bore if i'm going to shoot another lube in it such as Ben's Red and vice versa when going back to BLL.
    Running BLL and then shooting 45/45/10 on top of it , "or vice versa" might cause an accuracy problem? Don't know as i never tried doing that.

    I do know that Ben's Red doesn't seem to care at all if i fire it on top of another lube without cleaning the other lube out of the bore first....at least in my rifles.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    I see you mentioned using straight alox. I tried that in my rifles and definitely got flyers. It would purge every 5 to 7 shots on me. I would definitely get the straight alox out of the bore before shooting another lube on top of it.

    I also tried using straight JPW and got the same results...flyers every so many shots.
    I was going to try 45/45/10, but Ben came out with the BLL formula about then, so i tried it.
    Been using it ever since with zero problems.

    I don't think your problem is the micro groove, but shooting one lube on top of another without cleaning the old lube out first "could be".

    Some seem to get by shooting straight alox, so it could be just my old contrary rifles lol.

  6. #6
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    Thank you guys. I have cleaned the bore thoroughly and my plan is to shoot it Tuesday and start from scratch and keep methodical records. I have pretty much settled on BLL for now. The 45-45-10 and straight Alox was in the past. I haven't knowingly mixed bullet lubes but that is a good thought. I will switch to 45-45-10 once my stash of Johnson's wax is gone.

    I just thought that it was odd.

    Thanks again.

  7. #7
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    Marlin, huh? Check your scope mounts, and also if the buttstock is a little loose. A little flex in either (or both) will really kill accuracy.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
    The BHN Deformation Formula, and why I don't use it.
    How to find and fix sizing die eccentricity problems.
    Do you trust your casting thermometer?
    A few musings.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I'm with 35 shooter.

    Mostly I leave them dirty, cept they are so shiny they really can't be called dirty.

    At most a patch dampened with ATF, followed by one or two dry, wipe the outside off with the same thing, put it away.

    I really like a lightly dampened patch with ATF if switching lubes. But that happens pretty seldom these days. Everything is BLL or a variant of BLL with Carnuba added. (typically 1-2 %)

    New guns if in doubt I'll run a dry patch to remove any powder residue, then run the cheap 14$ 6mm bore scope down it to look for issues. If there are none, wipe the outside down and call it good.

    I really have not had a gun with leading for some time now. But bullet has to fit.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    sghart3578,

    You said you just started recently just running a dry patch and then an oily patch after shooting.
    Are you running a dry patch through the bore before shooting then?
    If not, the oil may be creating a "too slick" bore condition for the tumble lube?

    Or it may even be the type oil your using is not compatable with your lube.
    Just a thought.
    I have found ATF oil to be very compatable with BLL. If cleaning with the Hoppes was working for you, i'd keep using it, or try the atf, then a dry patch before shooting....Just a thought.
    Like GhostHawk, i use nothing but the ATF for cleaning.

    Good luck with it!
    Last edited by 35 shooter; 02-03-2018 at 01:40 AM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    What Ghost Hawk and 35 shooter are describing are what smallbore target competitors call "stable bore condition". Once established, we NEVER clean the bore until there is a definite decrease in accuracy. After cleaning it is common to fire 50-100 rounds until the gun "settles in" again.

    My 1894c does not have a Micro-groove barrel, yours may have, but in either case it is essential to find the load combo that is correct for YOUR rifle. Boolit alloy plats an important role here too! My gun is very forgiving; it has a .3556" bore, my boolits drop at .360" (Lee 158 RNFP-PB). I can shoot them unsized, tumble-lubed, up to about 1100 fps and they work great! Faster than that, I size to .358" and lube with NRA 50-50 lube to 1600 fps. Faster than that, it's gas-check time! Same alloy across the board, 94-3-3. Trial and error, see what works, experiment, no magic involved. Well, the magic happens when you find that one load that gives you what you're looking for, repeatably! Keep shootin'!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Which ATF do you use? There are a number of different types.
    Does it make any difference?

  12. #12
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    I've been using Auto Zone's "DexMerc", which i was told was their version of Dexron. I seldom clean my bores when shooting cast, but when i do, it's 1 dampened patch of DexMerc, and then 1 dry patch before shooting again.

    It's worked great with Ben's Red, BLL, and Simple lube for me. I did a lot of experimenting a few years ago, looking for something to "pre season" the bore after cleaning to keep that cold clean bbl. shot in the group, or for the hunt.
    This has worked for me and others that i know of. I tried several things that didn't work, so sometimes you just have to experiment.
    The ATF oil is a good place to start.

  13. #13
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    Interested in you guys using straight ATF as a bore cleaner. I made up a gallon of Ed's Red a few years ago and am still using it, but it's getting low. ATF is one of the primary ingredients and the stuff is cheap and available. Maybe I'll save some trouble and just use that instead of making another batch.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I got started with the ATF after reading about Ed's Red. But I did not like the idea of some of the ingredients it had. Some of which could mess with rifle stock finishes.

    So I went out to my garage and found a 2/3rds full bottle of Dextron II.

    Put some in a smaller bottle and put it in my cleaning kit.

    Where I really started to see why I love this stuff was when I cleaned my Heritage Rough Rider .22lr/.22mag pistol. Went through the whole thing, oiled all the parts, then wiped them dry. Q tip with atf down the chambers and the center hole. When I was done the gun was bare and dry. But the cylinder would spin at least 3-4 times as long before slowing and stopping. It "sounded" different. Smoother, slicker.

    So I started using it more often.

    Centershot is exactly right about stable bore condition. I learned my lesson on a rabbit hunt, cleaned my Ruger 10/22 well the night before, including hoppes #9 down the bore. Never hit a rabbit that day.

    Took 50 rounds to get them back on target and the group was still big. By 100 rounds it was back stacking them up again. Aha I go as the light bulb went off.

    As long as it is stacking them, I won't do anything to disrupt it.
    Once it stops, then scrub, and re-season, and once it is back, oil the outside and put it away.

    As to which ATF. I think they are probably all pretty close on a gross scale.

    My current bottle is Dextron III and I think it is a cheap brand but it works.

    And if you need to do super cleaning. Like lifting lead deposits. Take a shot glass, fill it half full of ATF, and put 3-4 squirts of "goo-gone" in with the ATF.

    Make your patches big enough so they are very tight. One drop of the mix in the center and push through. Dry patch (tight) and repeat.

    For me this worked better on a leaded up SKS than Hoppes or anything else I had in the house.

    If you like you can alternate between the Hoppes and the ATF mix. It seems to get "under" the lead better so the tight patch can grab it and pull it out of there.

    Goo-gone also works great on cosmoline so great if you have milsurps to keep a bottle around.

    That is all I know. Other than one other little tidbit.

    I had mentioned the goo-gone in ATF before in a thread here.
    Someone did some serious checking into the chemistry.

    He never said exactly why it works but he made some comment about me being closer to the mark than most thought.

    ATF + Goo-gone = happy guns, happy guns = happy me. Bout that simple.
    Last edited by GhostHawk; 02-06-2018 at 09:44 AM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy GRid.1569's Avatar
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    Alox (thinned) is my only lube option... I find my problems are after I clean the gun... Vertical stringing for about 30rounds them I’m back on track.... I use Kroil patch to wet the barrel and dry patches there after for a squeaky clean
    May we achieve our aims....

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRid.1569 View Post
    Alox (thinned) is my only lube option... I find my problems are after I clean the gun... Vertical stringing for about 30rounds them I’m back on track.... I use Kroil patch to wet the barrel and dry patches there after for a squeaky clean
    Most people use waaaay too much Lee Liquid Alox on their bullets. I dilute it equal parts by liquid volume with aliphatic mineral spirits and use 1 fluid ounce of the diluted solution to every 25 POUNDS of bullets, agitating in a .50 cal. ammo can.

    Four fluid ounces of dilute solution to do ONE HUNDRED POUNDS of plainbased .30 cal. gallery rifle, .38 or .45 wadcutters in a 5 gallon bucket rotated in a cement mixer.

    After every 5th cycle you can do a run with mineral spirits only to dissolve and redistribute the dried LLA coating the inside of the bucket or ammo can.

    Too much lube enlarges groups. We test for 25-yard X-ring circular-normal groups and expect 2" or less with good .38 or .45 wadcutters at 50 yards, or with .30 cal. gallery rifle loads in .30-'06 boltguns at 100 yards. No leading issues. Start with a clean bore, which has been LIGHTLY lubricated with mineral oil USP or the diluted lubricant so that for the first string you aren't sending bullets down a squeaky clean dry bore. Once the bore has been conditioned treat it like a seasoned .22 match rifle or pistol. After firing wet the bore with cotton mop only using Ed's Red or Kroil and leave it wet. DO NOT BRUSH!

    Store muzzle down. Before shooting again run one wet patch to push out softened crud, then two dry patches through bore, dry the chamber to prevent backthrust of case against bolt face and shoot. Bore remains conditioned with slight remaining oily-lube residue in bore. First shot from wiped, cold barrel at 25 yards pistol or 100 yards rifle should shoot right to sights and into group of subsequent shots without any foulers or sighters needed.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 02-06-2018 at 03:23 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Okay, 1 fluid ounce is 2 Tablespoons

    3 teaspoons in a Tablespoon.

    I've been using about 1/4 teaspoon, tumbled twice, on roughly 2 pounds of boolits. I get a good lube star on the end of 7.5" barrels.

    Sounds like I'm right on your plan.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
    Okay, 1 fluid ounce is 2 Tablespoons

    3 teaspoons in a Tablespoon.

    I've been using about 1/4 teaspoon, tumbled twice, on roughly 2 pounds of boolits. I get a good lube star on the end of 7.5" barrels.

    Sounds like I'm right on your plan.
    The independent affirmation is GREATLY appreciated!

    You wouldn't believe how many people I try to explain this process to think that I am nuts.

    Guys that work behind the counter in gun shops are worst, because they want to sell more lube...
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  19. #19
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    Two thoughts about Alox lube, including Recluse(45/45//10) and BLL, and it's variants.

    First - if Lee had instructions a bit more specific than ' dribble a small amount on some bullets...', more people would be comfortable trying it.

    Second - if Dillon or RCBS had come up with this lube, everyone would be saying it was the best thing ever.

    I'm a fan, now, of both BLL (actually BLL#2, made with Lundmark wax), and Recluse lube (45/45/10).
    When I first tried Lee Alox, I was stymied by the lack of specifics given by the people making and selling it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
    Two thoughts about Alox lube, including Recluse(45/45//10) and BLL, and it's variants.

    First - if Lee had instructions a bit more specific than ' dribble a small amount on some bullets...', more people would be comfortable trying it.

    Second - if Dillon or RCBS had come up with this lube, everyone would be saying it was the best thing ever.

    I'm a fan, now, of both BLL (actually BLL#2, made with Lundmark wax), and Recluse lube (45/45/10).
    When I first tried Lee Alox, I was stymied by the lack of specifics given by the people making and selling it.
    How well does the alternate BLL work for you vs the original? I've been working with 45 45 10 but I want to try BLL because it sounds like it's less mess and less aggravation (though 45 45 10 hasn't been bad, but it'd be nice to not have to preheat my lube in hot water and my bullets with a heat gun)

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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