Need help with leading in cylinder throats

[Beanhead]

I have been loading 44 mag, 357 mag, and 38 special loads with cast for a few years now. Im not set up to cast my own yet so I buy from a local commercial caster. After reading here and other fourms I was able to get my 44mag to stop leading with all cast loads from mild to hot because I found the perfect fit. Now its time to get the 38 to stop leading.

I am shooting a smith 686 with 4” barrel. The barrel slugged .3565” and the cylinder throats slugged .357” All of my loads use a commercial cast 158grain SWC with bevel base sized .358” Acording to the caster they are about 18 BHN. I have tried mid range magnum loads with blue dot, light loads with unique and red dot and always get terrible leading in each of the cylinder throats and the first inch or so of the barrel. The 38 special loads seems to lead worse than the 357 mag loads but they are both terrible. I have to use a brush with chore boy and scrub like a mad man to get the lead out of the cylinder throats and barrel.

I have about 1000 of these bullets so I would like to use them if possible. Should my next step be to buy a lee sizer die and resize the bullets down to .357” Im new to this but im thinking the cylinder throats could be shaving off the sides of the bigger bullet causeing leading. Or is the bullet size fine but too hard to allow a bump up to make a good seal? If so should I buy some softer bullets from Missiouri Bullet works? What size and hardness should I try for light loads? Also are 38 special loads in a 357 mag more prone to leading things up due to the bullet jump in the cylinder? Thanks

[Wayne Smith]

I would suggest that you first look at the lube. Hard lube may not be adequate to the job if that is what he is using.

[Beanhead]

The bullets do have a hard wax type lube. I didnt think of lube because I thought that inadequate lube would lead the middle and end of the barrel? If it is lube causing the problem what would be a good solution? Could I coat the bullets in some Lee liquid alox?

[Outpost75]

The bullets do have a hard wax type lube. I didnt think of lube because I thought that inadequate lube would lead the middle and end of the barrel? If it is lube causing the problem what would be a good solution? Could I coat the bullets in some Lee liquid alox?

Coat them with diluted Lee Liquid Alox, cut 50-50 with clear mineral spirits.
Don't remove the old lube, just coat them lightly all over on top of what is already there.

[JBinMN]

I am just curious, but are you talking about the "carbon" ( usually a "ring") left in the cylinder?

As well as possibly your cylinder is not aligned well with the forcing cone causing lead to "shave" & leave hot lead into the barrel, as it goes into the barrel? Or, something in that forcing cone area that might be contributing? If some "shaving is going on & the ignited powder is melting those "shavings" , perhaps that is part of it?

Pics help folks with helping you find the issues. Perhaps you could do that & share some pics?

G'Luck!


ETA: I was typing, but posted just after Outpost75 suggestion(s) & I respect his opinion on such things, but I am still curious as to how this would happen, as I have not had that problem ever & in the past I have used commercial cast " hard" lubed boolits a lot & in more than one firearm. (Mostly WCs & they have that blunt front that would certainly be more likely to "shave" lead based on their shape/lack of nose, if it had ever happened)

[Beanhead]

This is a revolver I bought new and has maybe 1000 rounds through it so hopefully it is not an alignment problem. Also it is for sure lead in the cylinder throats and the first inch or so of the barrel. There is a ring of lead in all the cylinder throats and lead smeared in the barrel and forcing cone for the first inch or so. The rest of the barrel stays clean. Maybe the bullet is too large for the cylinder throat causeing it to get shaved? Then the shaved lead gets smeared part of the way down the barrel?

I shoot comercial cast bullets in my 44 mag with no leading. Hot and mild loads. The bore on it slugs .430 and the throats slug .432 so i shoot .432 bullets in it. I am able to push the bullet through the throat with a pencil using little force. In my 357 i can not push the .358” slugs though the throats at all. This has me thinking that maybe the bullet is to large and too tight thus causing the shaving but i am no expert?

Im at work with no pictures to post now and the gun is clean but if it is still day light when i get off i will run a few rounds through it and take some pictures. If not i will post them tomorrow. It takes no more than a cylinder or two to lead it up. Thanks for the responses.

[Victor N TN]

Lewis lead remover...https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleani...prod21587.aspx

It works wonders.

[bosterr]

Once upon a time I was using my 6" 586 for the local combat matches and was using my own cast .358 diameter 180 gr. TC boolits. I was lubing with Thompson's Blue Angel lube (hard) and loading Winchester 231. I was getting leading exactly as you describe. I don't do combat anymore and now load the same boolit and use a softer lube and WC820 powder, which is closer in burning rate to 296/H110. All leading has disappeared. I always thought the combination of the fast powder and hard lube was the problem. I never tried to eliminate one or the other.

[DougGuy]

You may want to send the cylinder and have it checked over for tool marks in the chamfer where the chamber ends and the throat begins, this will collect lead like crazy.

The other thing to look at, is that you may want to send the cylinder and have the throats reamed and honed to .3585" and size to .358" This generally works very well for any 38/357 revolver I do a lot of them and it fixes the leading really well. Closes up groups too! Lots of people on this forum have sent their cylinders and they are very happy with the results.

I would recommend a softer alloy and softer lube as well, those commercial magma cast boolits with the hard crayon lube are particularly susceptible to leading the daylights out of a barrel. I got away from those years ago.

[Beanhead]

Bosterr, If it is being caused by fast powder and hard lube I should be able to elimnate this by coating them with liquid alox? I have about 7# of Unique and 4# of red dot on my shelf and the recoil of the light loads are perfect for plinking and my wife enjoys the light loads much better.

DougGuy, what you are saying makes sense that bullets bigger than the throat would cause leading and having the cylinder reamed out to .358” would allow proper fit of the .358” bullets I have. Since by barrel slugs .356” and the throats slug .357” would it be worth getting a sizing die from lee and resize the bullets down to .357” matching the current throat size before I have the cylinder reamed? That would allow my bullets to match the throat size and still be .001” over grove size. Not sure if the bullet being .001” over throat size and .002” over grove could cause this?

Any thoughts on resizing commercial cast with the simple Lee push through sizer?

Thanks to all

[DougGuy]

I would size the throats to fit the .358" boolits you have now, and I would look for some softer alloy and softer lube also sized .358"

Commercial cast is hard, and they use hard lube. It can lead the daylights out of a "properly dimensioned" revolver. I haven't used commercial hard cast in 25yrs. The guns I have now are fed 50/50+2% with soft lube and I haven't needed to run a patch down the barrel since I learned about 50/50+2% and soft lube on this forum and began using it years ago.

In a perfect world, a revolver boolit needs to be .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter, and the throats need to be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter. This way the exact size of the boolit you load, is getting delivered to the bore without being changed by the throats.

Edit: Also let me ask this. How did you measure the slug? With calipers or a good micrometer? Calipers are only to get close, and measuring throats with calipers is just guessing. When you slug the bore, did you use a boolit or a dead soft lead ball or walmart fishing sinker?

[bosterr]

I never used liquid alox, but it may be worth a try. My combat loads were a little on the warm side, but still not max. Unique could be the ticket, it's worth a try too. My 180 gr. boolits mic at .3855 and are cast with 70/30 WW/lead (I want to use up a lot of pure lead that I have) and water dropped, and lubed with Carnuba Red. This is one of the few cast shooting guns I have that I've not slugged the throats and bore, it shot pretty good from the start. I whole heartily agree that the commercial hard lubes are only good for getting a box of boolits shipped clear across the country with the lube still in the grooves. I never had DougGuy work on anything yet, but I've read he's turned many a sow's ear into a silk purse.

[Beanhead]

To slug the barrel and throats I used muzzeloading round balls. I have a calibrated 0-1” mic that measures down to .0001” that I used to use doing machine work. I feel good that I made acurate measurements but I will slug the barrel and throats again just to be absolutly positive of my demensions. After that I will look for someone to ream the throats in the cylinder to .358”

It does make sense to ream the throats because that will allow the common .358” bullets to fit the cylinder throats and give me .002” over the bore’s groove size. Im just hesitant to take off metal that can never be returned.

I realize commercial cast bullets have terrible lube but I am unable to cast my own at this point so I have no choice but to use them or shoot jacketed bullets. I was able to develop a load for my 44 magnum with commercial bullets that doesnt lead the barrel so I feel it should be possible with help from this forum to find one for this 357 that doesnt lead. Thanks to everyone again.

DougGuy, You said you have helped many people by reaming cylinder throats for them? Once I verify my measurements I would be interested in talking to you about possibly doing mine. Thanks

[silhouette_shooter]

I had the same problem until I started using bullets made to take gas checks. I shoot cast bullets made from Lyman number 2 out of my Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 41 Magnum, (among others), and never get any leading. I'm guessing that a plain base bullet in a revolver gets hosed up during the trip across the barrel/cylinder gap. Plus I send my cylinders to Bowen Classic Arms and have them opened up so they're the same diameter as the bullets. On my 45 caliber Ruger Bisley I had them opened up to .4525. I call that gun my Ten Ring Ruger.

[Thumbcocker]

Hard lead + hard lube = leading. Listen to Outpost 75

[mehavey]

Cylinder-throat/barrel-groove/Bullet sizing are a perfect match.
The Bevel-Base/Hard Lead/Hard-Lube/Low-Pressure combo, however, makes for disaster

- Burn the fastest powder you can (RedDot you say)
- At least mid/mid-high pressures
- Use relatively soft 50-50 lube,
- ....and see if you can get flat-base softer (BN 8-10) bullets

[mdi]

My first thought was about the bevel based bullet. Normally, leading at the beginning of the barrel is due to bullets too small. Perhaps the bevel base is allowing hot gas to sneak by and melt the bullet?

If it were my gun I might open up the throats to .358" and use flat based bullets or perhaps gas checks on .358" bullets...

I have experienced "lead spray" and a bit of leading when shooting bullets larger than the cylinder throats, mostly in a 44 Magnum...

[Beanhead]

I think the easiest thing to try out of all the suggestions would be to find softer bullets with a flat base? Any ideals on where I can buy softer .358” bullets with plain base? Preferably a SWC. I do not cast myself so I am at the mercy of what is sold to the public. If one is not avalible what about a softer bullet with a bevel base? Even if it is commecial cast with hard lube I could always re-lube with 50-50 alox as stated above correct? I would like to save reaming the cylinder throats for last as it can not be undone.

Thanks

[DougGuy]

To slug the barrel and throats I used muzzeloading round balls. I have a calibrated 0-1” mic that measures down to .0001” that I used to use doing machine work. I feel good that I made acurate measurements but I will slug the barrel and throats again just to be absolutly positive of my demensions. After that I will look for someone to ream the throats in the cylinder to .358”

It does make sense to ream the throats because that will allow the common .358” bullets to fit the cylinder throats and give me .002” over the bore’s groove size. Im just hesitant to take off metal that can never be returned.

I realize commercial cast bullets have terrible lube but I am unable to cast my own at this point so I have no choice but to use them or shoot jacketed bullets. I was able to develop a load for my 44 magnum with commercial bullets that doesnt lead the barrel so I feel it should be possible with help from this forum to find one for this 357 that doesnt lead. Thanks to everyone again.

DougGuy, You said you have helped many people by reaming cylinder throats for them? Once I verify my measurements I would be interested in talking to you about possibly doing mine. Thanks

Just send a PM thorugh the site here. Sounds like your measurements are spot on. As long as you can use .358" and the throats are not sizing them down, you are already over groove diameter so at this point it isn't even necessary to know what it measures. The thing to concentrate on is the relationship of the boolit and the throats. .3585" to .3588" is what I commonly size them to and this just works very well for using .358" boolits.

There isn't any negative to having throats at .358" as this is just the right amount over groove diameter, even if you shoot jacketed out of a .358" cylinder, the core in the j-word bullet is dead soft lead and they will bump up and fill the throat, they will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. So will a softer cast boolit unless you are shooting mouse fart target loads.. I have done way up into the hundreds of 357 cylinders now, not one was noted to be a mistake. Not one complaint so far.

The most optimum arrangement for cast boolits in just about any centerfire revolver made, any caliber, is the boolit .001" ot .002" greater than groove diameter, and the throats .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter. This arrangement insures there is sufficent size when the boolit enters the bore for it to swage into a good seal all the way around, and the throats are sized so that they don't downsize the boolit when it is fired. It just works.

Look on Montana Bullet Works site for 357 boolits, check out the style you like and then look to see if it is bhn 15 or bhn 22. These are the two alloys they use, and I am suggesting you find a boolit you like, make sure it is listed as bhn 15, order 100 or so sized .358" with Veral's soft blue lube and give them a try. if they won't fit through the throats with finger pressure, send me the cylinder and we will get it fixed up in short order. I believe you would be well on your way to a much better experience with cast boolits at this point.

[mehavey]

http://cowboybullets.com/
Try these guys

But I'll be honest....
Find someone that casts;
Go to school on them; and
Think about getting into the game.

It'll drive you nuts.
...and misery loves company.