Ballard #2

[toot]

marlinman93, i checked the gun. on the left side in 3 lines it is stamped-MARLIN FIREARMS Co. NEW HAVEN Ct. PATENTED. FEBRUARY. 9. 1875. BALLARD'S PATENT. NOV.5.1861. SERIAL #304XX. the two loading tools that I have are marked, IDEAL MF'G Co. NEW HAVEN, Ct. U.S.A. 38-55. M. PAT FEB 11 &DEC 23-84. i shoot 200 grain cast heads in it with TRAIL BOSS powder, I think 6 grs. of powder with no filler. thank you for the info.PS. why are the loading tools marked 38-55 M for MARILN and not W for WINCHESTER, is there a difference in the two?

[marlinman93]

marlinman93, i checked the gun. on the left side in 3 lines it is stamped-MARLIN FIREARMS Co. NEW HAVEN Ct. PATENTED. FEBRUARY. 9. 1875. BALLARD'S PATENT. NOV.5.1861. SERIAL #304XX. the two loading tools that I have are marked, IDEAL MF'G Co. NEW HAVEN, Ct. U.S.A. 38-55. M. PAT FEB 11 &DEC 23-84. i shoot 200 grain cast heads in it with TRAIL BOSS powder, I think 6 grs. of powder with no filler. thank you for the info.PS. why are the loading tools marked 38-55 M for MARILN and not W for WINCHESTER, is there a difference in the two?

Your gun is most likely a cast frame Ballard, so low level loads are a must to keeping it together in the .38-55 caliber.
The Ideal tool is indeed marked correct, since Marlin was the first to introduce the .38-55 in their Ballard rifles. There is no .38-55 Win. caliber, although you aren't alone in mistakenly believing the .38-55 is a Winchester cartridge. The original cartridge that both the .38-55 Ballard and .32-40 Ballard cartridges were based on was the .38-50 Ballard cartridge. Both .38-55 and .32-40 were offered in the Ballard before Winchester even had a gun capable of handling those cartridges!
Over the many decades of production, Winchester marked their ammo .38-55M and .32-40M at first, as they didn't want to mark Marlin on their brass. Then later they simply began marking their ammo with WIN after the caliber. So today many people assume these two great cartridges were Winchester, when they are really Marlin.
Even my old Hepburn Match B in .32-40 Ballard has the barrel marked ".32-40 B&M" for the Ballard and Marlin connection.

[toot]

marlinman93, thank you for that information on my gun and loading tool's, BTW. if i sold the extra loading tool what should i ask for it ?. and did they come with the gun or did it have to be purchased separate. i am placing the info you posted to my inquiry with my gun for reference. are these cast frame guns safe to shoot factory 38/55's in? again thank's.

[marlinman93]

No, they should not be fired with factory ammo in .38-55 with a cast frame. Marlin only put pistol caliber chamberings in the cast #2 actions. Calibers were mostly .32 Long and .38 Long, but some were also made in .44 Long, .44-40, and .32-20. These last three were later dropped when it was determined the factory ammo got hotter and might be too a bit much. I have all 5 calibers and using mild loads I'd shoot them forever.
The Ideal tool you have is probably not something that came with a Ballard, and surely not yours since the barrel has been changed. Ideal wasn't started by John Barlow until 1884, and the tong tools didn't come along until around the late 1880's. Ballard production ended in 1890, and Marlin supplied their own tools for Ballard rifles.
The Ideal tools vary in value depending on condition, and whether complete. Most are missing the decapping rod/pin that sits inside the chamber. If it's very nice, with high nickel finish, but no pin, it will still get around $40-$50. If iit has the pin I'd add another $10-$15. If it's just average condition with flaking nickel, and no pin, it's worth about $30. Marlin owned Ideal from 1910 to 1916, and tools built then were marked Marlin Firearms Co. Those tools get 50% premiums in equal condition to Marlin collectors. I have 8 or 9 Marlin marked Ideal tools.
If you were to pull the forearm off your Ballard, you can see if the barrel has a serial number on it. That number will always match the receiver serial number if factory, so if the number isn't there, or is mismatched, or is the wrong font, it will tell the owner the barrel isn't factory.
A lot of Ballard rifles have been reworked, and mismatching barrels are pretty common to find.

[Green Frog]

To add to what Vall said (and this is pretty arrogant of me ‘cause he knows tons more about Ballard’s than I) there were two big times when Ballard’s seem to have been popularly modified, or perhaps three. In the last years of the 19th and the early 20th Century the style of target shooting we now call Schuetzen was very popular and many shooters thought of the Ballard as the finest platform upon which to build custom target rifles. Keep in mind that at this date smokeless powder was still in its infancy, and for most of this era there was a lot of BP still being used. Ballard had only recently been discontinued and was still common enough that most of these builds were based on the stronger, more desirable forged action. After the 1st World War until about the early ‘50s the demand for high quality rimfire position rifles brought a new rise in demand for the old Ballards, and in this instance either cast or forged frames worked fine with the lower pressures involved. Finally, the resurgence of schuetzen by the shank end of the last surge saw a renewed demand for CF target rifles and since both actions had been OK for the last round of builds, unknowledgeable folks put barrels on some of the old cast actions in calibers they were never meant to have. If I had to make a guess, I’d say your 38-55 probably was built then. It may have been one of the many examples that was built into a rimfire rifle (thus the reversible firing pin) then reconverted when somebody found a good old barrel. This is just speculation on my part, but if you check the SN on the tails of the breechblock, I bet it will not match that on the frame.

Cast Ballard’s make excellent 22s, and since we are fairly certain your example has already been altered, this might be a good use for it. If you decide to take this path, the 38-55 barrel would probably be desirable to many (myself included) if in good enough condition to merit reinstallation on a forged frame. As Vall said, those Ideal tools that accompanied it will also bring a fair amount to help recover your costs. I hope this will be of help choosing how you want to use your Ballard.

Regards,
Froggie

[marlinman93]

Although I'd never recommend putting a .32-40, .38-55 barrel on a cast action, I would not say you have to remove it either. As I mentioned before, I'd never use factory ammo in it, and smokeless loads should be with slower burning powders at midrange levels!
I also have a cast action #2 Ballard with a .32-40 barrel fitted to it. It was used by an old shooter in Denver, Co. as a breech seating target rifle it's whole life, and I shoot it the same way. I keep my loads very light, and it's a joy to shoot. I wouldn't think of modifying it today as the barrel serial number matches the frame, and that would be sad to separate them just because it was rebored from .32 Long and rechambered decades ago! I'll simply keep shooting it, and keep notes in my records to indicate what it is for the future.
The gun in the bottom right side of the picture with pistol gripped nickeled receiver is this gun. It has checkered rosewood stocks with cheekpiece, half octagon barrel, horn tip forearm, loop lever, Swiss buttplate, and all are serial numbered to the gun.

[toot]

marlinman93, well today i took off the hand guard on my MARLIN BALLARD #2 rifle in 38 /55 cal. and checked the serial # on the bottom barrel flat on the octagon barrel and it is the same as on the bottom of the receiver- 304xx, both are the same. just to let you know. is that the norm? you thought the barrel was not generic to the gun in that caliber. so i am still going to shoot lite loads of TRAIL BOSS so i don't get into any trouble with it be cause it is a rely nice piece. thanks for all of your help.

[skeettx]

SWEET!!!
Now all we need is a picture of the 38-55 so we can drool
Thank you
Mike

[marlinman93]

marlinman93, well today i took off the hand guard on my MARLIN BALLARD #2 rifle in 38 /55 cal. and checked the serial # on the bottom barrel flat on the octagon barrel and it is the same as on the bottom of the receiver- 304xx, both are the same. just to let you know. is that the norm? you thought the barrel was not generic to the gun in that caliber. so i am still going to shoot lite loads of TRAIL BOSS so i don't get into any trouble with it be cause it is a rely nice piece. thanks for all of your help.

No, that is not usually what is done when converting these cast Ballards to a CF like .38-55. But it makes me wonder if perhaps they simply took a #2 in .38 Long and rechambered it to .38-55? Many Ballards had no caliber marking until late in production, so if someone had one in .38 Long they could simply add the .38-55 marking after reaming the chamber.
Next question is what size does your bore slug to? Most original Ballard barrels in .38-55 will slug around .380"-.383", but a .38 Long will slug around .375"-.376", so if yours is small it might be what happened.
I had a #2 once that was a gorgeous gun in .40-70SS. I knew when I bought it that it wasn't right, but it was cheap enough to save. It started life as a #2 in .38 Long that someone rebored to .408" and chambered in .40-70SS! I took the barrel off and saved it, as that was perfect for a forged action. I put a nice .22RF barrel on it, and made a wonderful little shooter.

[toot]

as i said this is the first one that i have had, so please bare with me for all of the questions i ask you. i just slugged the barrel and it came out at .375" on the money. so now we know it started out life as a . 38 LONG cartridge. next question, if it was a .38 LONG.RIM FIRE why did it come with a reversible rim fire to center fire firing pin in the hammer? did they put them on all rim fire and center fire actions ? my lap top will not let me take and send a picture, don't know why just will not. so if i can i will try E-MAILING you and skeettx a picture and hope it works. the gun also had a tang site on it that some one saw fit to remove be fore i got it. thanks.

[marlinman93]

The .38 Long was offered in both RF and CF cartridges, so Marlin came up with the reversible firing pin so owners had the ability to use either cartridge, depending on availability. They did this for the #2 in .32 Long, .32 Extra Long, and .44 Long also, as all three calibers came either RF or CF. Other #2 Ballards in calibers not available as RF did not get the reversible firing pin. But for calibers like .44-40, and .32-20 those #2 actions had a CF only firing pin.

[toot]

WOW! that was a novel concept in firearms making, two for one. i also didn't know about the same calibers that came in rim fire and center fire. you are a wealth of information! thank you for taking the time to put up with my questions and answering them for me.

[MOA]

Very, very nice marlinman.

[marlinman93]

WOW! that was a novel concept in firearms making, two for one. i also didn't know about the same calibers that came in rim fire and center fire. you are a wealth of information! thank you for taking the time to put up with my questions and answering them for me.

Thanks for asking! I love talking Ballards and their nuances.