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Thread: Another Core Bonding ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Another Core Bonding ?

    I am working on a batch of 68g, 22 Rim fire bullets. I'm too the point I can make the bullets turn out looking to my satisfaction. Now I'd like to try bonding the cores to jackets. I am not going to use any flux to begin with, I want to figure out a routine first. The problem is standing the Jacket/Core combo up while heating. The only thing I've found so far that fits the bill is a Tin bottom from .177 cal. pellets I found that fits 102 bullets at once, and I've only got one. I'm looking for a little higher production rate. My question to you is how do you stand them up while heating ?

    My kiln capacity is advertised as 8x8x6 inch, but my ideal of a tray would only be 7x7x.5 inch the way I see it. But then on the other hand, if I didn't produce enough bullets in a batch, I'd have to have some way to keep them stood up somehow. Got any Idea's ???

  2. #2
    Vendor Sponsor uncle dino's Avatar
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    Imo it's a waste of time to try bonding without flux..Corbin's has heat bricks that holes can be drilled into to hold each bullet.. D

  3. #3
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    +1 to what Dino said. The blocks are cheap as is the flux. A quart would last several lifetimes. This has been discussed recently. Something to ponder. You wouldn't forgo flux to fix a plumbing issue, why would you do it with bullets other than to produce poorly bonded bullets?
    Zbench

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    How hot do you plan to go? I'm thinking of a baking sheet with hardware cloth stretched over it.

    I'm concerned with the zinc coating. Maby an acid bath for the hardware cloth first?
    Last edited by jdfoxinc; 01-26-2018 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Added content
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I'd suggest trying either expanded steel (diamonds, you've seen the stuff) or Stainless Steel hardware cloth.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Core bonding without flux won't work. Even cheap plumbing flux from the hardware store will increase your odds markedly.

    Its like trying to sweat copper without cleaning/fluxing the joint. Just ain't going to flow right.

    Even with new copper tubing your looking at probably a 50% at best success rate.

    If your using fired .22lr brass, ain't no way in hades its going to fly.

    It only takes a minor amount of flux, the right amount of heat, and lead to make them bond.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I'd put it this way. The inside of said .22LR shell has seen the powder combust inside it - You think it might just have made some nice strong bonds with the combustion products from firing that shell, maybe? I'm betting on those over a non fluxed lead core sticking well to it :P

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Carbon is an anti flux. Copper smiths would rub graphite on the parts they did not want tinned.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    So what you're saying is I'd just be better off seating the core without heat ? I do have a small bottle of Corbin Core Bond. The batch of jackets that I am currently working with has been washed twice before de-rimming, and then annealed at 875 for 30 min..(I'm not entirely sure that is enough, but it produced way better results than no heat) and then washed again. I also have a stainless "Box" of sorts that fits my kiln just about perfectly, but it is taller than I wanted for one layer of rim fire bullets. I could probably fit four layers in it, but I think it could hold 800 to 1k on one layer and that's not going to fit my schedule.

    Jd, how hot do you think I need to go ? I think I could belt the Brass if I wanted to. If I stand rim fire cups up next to each other, with the core inserted into said cup, is that going to hinder the middle of the flat from completely melting/bonding. Or should I stand them up with core inserted, drop bonding acid over the core and fire'em up ?

    This is only my third batch, and I have been a little picky with matching jackets and cores to get within two tenths up or down, so I'm a little Leary bout just rushing them through. And it doesn't make sense to me to just heat them up and melt them without core bond after all the rest of the work I've put into them.(now that you've explained the carbon thing) Even if they bin washed ten times. But then my patience meter doesn't go to 800+ before firing, and I thought a shorter tray would make putting the core bond on a little easier. Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out my process, but I appreciate all your input !

    I apologize if this had already been discussed, I did do a search a found nothing pertaining to how to stand rim fire cups up for bonding. And my de-rimming punch rounds the bottom enough there's no way they will stand on their own.

  10. #10
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    If this is too pricey, you could make something out of plaster of paris and some slightly larger cases....

    http://www.swagedies.com/mm5/merchan...ry_Code=HTREAT
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    You said 68 gr bullets using rimfire jackets. Does the lead core sit above the mouth of the jacket when you set them in? If it does, it is possible that you might have some lead run over the jacket mouth as it melts.

    FWIW, I've tried bonding 22 rimfire jackets in the past and didn't have great luck. I may have used more heat than needed. Your kiln may work better, just don't heat much over the melting point of the lead.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    When I had access to a mill at work I took a 1/2" thick plate of aluminum that would fit in my kiln, and drilled a couple hundred holes in it. Drilled and tapped 4 holes in the corners and bolted another piece of aluminum to the bottom of the first piece.

    I have never attempted to bond 22RF jackets, but it seems to me if you were to ultrasonic clean the RF cases you might have better results.
    The jackets that I do bond seem to have better results with a bit of tin in the lead, I use 1-2% tin. (You are attempting to "solder" the lead to the brass jacket, can't do that without some tin in the mix.)

    If you are using an acid flux make sure you clean the bonded cores/jackets very well in a baking soda solution to neutralize any acid before you seat the cores or your dies will rust from the acid.


    Edit: If you are bonding the cores I see no need to anneal the jackets in a separate step. I set the temperature on the kiln at 900*f, hold at that temperature for 30 minutes to allow the heat to stabilize, and then shut the kiln off and walk away, come back the next day and the cores have cooled.
    Last edited by Pipefitter; 01-28-2018 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    I'm still not entirely convinced I "need" to actually bond the core. Not trying to do much more than keeping my dog out of the house and exercising, maybe part a few rabbits from some fur. Kill some cans, maybe some paper. But speeding up the process a little wouldn't hurt at all. I enjoy it all, start to finish. But I don't seem to get out of the house near as much since I started swaging.

    Edit: If you are bonding the cores I see no need to anneal the jackets in a separate step. I set the temperature on the kiln at 900*f, hold at that temperature for 30 minutes to allow the heat to stabilize, and then shut the kiln off and walk away, come back the next day and the cores have cooled.

    Anneal and Melt, all at once.
    This is one conclusion I have come to after previous batches. But I haven't got around to shooting any yet. Is the jacket not going to stay with the core without bonding ?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    B T Sniper is making 70 gr lead tipped pills. The lead is level with the mouth of the derimed case.

    Use a Q tip or equivalent to apply flux to interior of case then place core, then stand in whatever holder you use.

    I just ordered 1/4" expanded metal mesh to place over a couple of shallow cookie sheets, through Walmart.com. To hold cases.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    I agree you do not really need to bond at all. For rabbits and cans, cup and core just swaged together is more than good enough. The kiln is perfect for annealing, leave it at that. Bonded is the exception and not the rule. Keep it simple and they will work fine.

    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master xfoxofshogo's Avatar
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    just hot pore the lead in to the jacket after you flux it . i use brass cleaner then wipe flux in with quip then hot pore right in to the brass with a lee pot i made a custom spout for my pot so the brass fit on it and only put in a set amount of led for 55g and 60g work good but like other have told you no real point to it they frag just as much in less you make the lead hard with pewter and then its hard to swage them DanR and my self did a lot of testing with boned cores and bonding jackets to cores

  17. #17
    Boolit Master xfoxofshogo's Avatar
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    and if you want 90g hp use 22 mag brass i mad up to 110 with mag brass

  18. #18
    Boolit Man
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    I salvaged the grill from a semi hood, (the bug shield) it's Stainless mesh and real workable for this application. Pictures coming soon.

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