Water quench or not

[USMC87]

I am under the impression that any bullets I cast for a semi auto pistol have to be water quenched to harden them so they will not deform or lead up the ramp when feeding? I am going to cast some 9mm hp bullets from a mp mold and need a little guidance. I drop all revolver bullets on a towel and have no problem at all but a local guy planted the seed of doubt in my mind about casting for auto's, Any help is appreciated.

[44MAG#1]

Well, you have been misinformed.

[rancher1913]

as I understand it, water dropping hardness does not last, so unless you are going to shoot all your boolits within a week of their birth you are wasting your time. ymmv

[lotech]

I used to experiment with water hardening for rifle and handgun bullets. I found that for my uses of the bullets it was not necessary. Try both ways and see if there is any difference for your purposes.

[44MAG#1]

as I understand it, water dropping hardness does not last, so unless you are going to shoot all your boolits within a week of their birth you are wasting your time. ymmv

Where did you get that info. Sure they may drop back a little on BHN but it won't be much. If you have an alloy that will WQ to 25 BHN and it drops back 20% you still are as hard as Linotype. Even this will take a very long time to do. If it does.
I have never seen any real data from anyone that actually knows to support that BHN drops any significant amount.
I have bullets that were WQed that are still harder than a brick after several years.

[lightman]

Wheel weight alloy or anything close to it will survive being cycled through an automatic with no problem. I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets. I never felt that it accomplished anything either. You won't hurt anything by trying it just to see. Some swear by it while others like me don't.

[JBinMN]

If you have not read it, this chapter # 3 by Glen Fryxell in his book may help:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

Here is a part of it on Heat treatment & Water Quenching:

Heat treating and water quenching. This age hardening of antimony containing alloys can be accelerated at higher temperatures, i.e. heat treating the bullets. This is most commonly done by sizing the bullets first (since lead alloys work soften, and hence sizing would negate a significant portion of the hardness imparted by the heat treating process) then heating them to about 450° F in the oven and quenching by dumping them in cold water. The hardened bullets are then lubed using the same sizing die that was used before (so that no actual sizing takes place). Done in this manner, bullets cast with an alloy containing 5% antimony, 0.5% tin and 0.17% arsenic, which would normally have a Brinnell hardness of a little over 16 (after aging for 6 days), can be hardened to a BHN of over 35 (see Dennis Marshall‘s chapter “Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying“ in “Cast Bullets” published by the NRA). Notice that this alloy is not tremendously different from the common wheelweight. Much the same sort of result can be obtained by casting with a hot mould and water quenching directly (place a towel over the water bucket with a 4“ slot cut in it to contain the splashes). Mould temperature is critical for maximum effective hardness. Bullets water quenched from a “cool” mould (i.e. one from which the bullets were smooth and shiny) were found to be similar to air-cooled bullets. But bullets dropped from a mould that was “hot” (i.e. hot enough that the bullets were frosty over their entire surface) were found to have BHN of over 30 when water quenched. In a separate study, such a mould was found to have temperature of 430° F, very similar to the optimum oven temperature found in the heat treatment study (ca. 450° F). I don’t normally cast quite this hot, but even so, water-quenching WW alloy routinely gives me bullets with a Brinnell hardness of 18. One of the advantages of hardening bullets in this manner, as opposed to using linotype to make them hard, is that they are tougher and not as likely to shear or fragment on impact.

The whole thing, "From Ingot to Target", is a good read & has lots of info for folks. The beginning & Table of Contents is found here:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

G'Luck! & Semper Fi!

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[USMC87]

I really appreciate all the help, I don't want to water quench my bullets but just had to ask. Thanks so much for the link JbinMN and Semper fi.

[trapper9260]

I air cool all my and shot them in semi and non semi and have no problems like the op stated. Just make sure you have the alloy where it need to be also the style of the boolit that need to be also for the semi.

[JBinMN]

I really appreciate all the help, I don't want to water quench my bullets but just had to ask. Thanks so much for the link JbinMN and Semper fi.

You are Welcome! Happy to help if/when I can.


BTW, I don't generally water quench handgun boolits. I just drop them on a wet towel using 50/50 COWW/LEAD and the resulting BHN runs about 10-12 IIRC, maybe up to 14. I just can't recall right now. I do let some age as I casted a bunch before Winter set in here, so they may get harder, but I just have not tested any to check. I have WQ some rifle boolits I cast, but I have not tested them as of yet, but I was also trying to make them harder on purpose.

Anyway, once again... G'Luck! & Semper Fi!

[Wayne Smith]

Back when we were on the Amieo(sp) board a member did the research - and tested quenched boolits for over a year. He found no tendency to soften over time. If I remember right he had some that were quite a bit older and also retained their hardness.

[Walter Laich]

I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.

+1

I PC my bullets so the trip in the oven would remove any hardness I would get from water. Mine work fine this way

[44MAG#1]

Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.
+1

I PC my bullets so the trip in the oven would remove any hardness I would get from water. Mine work fine this way

Harder to size? Spray with Hornady spray case lube.
Remove hardness when heated by PCing?
If it is done correctly they can be hardened when PCed. In a water quench bath.

[fecmech]

I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.

If you size your bullets the same day as casting them they will be much easier to size. They harden considerably more in 24 hours after WD. If you don't or can't size the same day putting the WD bullets immediately into your freezer or storing outside in the winter will dramatically slow the hardening process and buy you a few days more time to easily size them.

[gwpercle]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.

[44MAG#1]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.

I have heard that work softening deal many times. But most who WQ does so because they don't want a bullet that is easy to deform on game or in the gun.
If you don't care about that don't water quench.

[Yodogsandman]

I only water drop boolits for high pressure pistols like 9mm and 40 S&W. Always just done it for insurance, not any particular need.

Has anyone actually had any ill effects of work softening from sizing? The depth of work softening only goes as deep as the lead that is sized. So, a .360" boolit sized down to .358" is only .001" on each side. The rifling depth is more like .004" on each side. Plenty of hard boolit left to catch and hold the rifling.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.

I think he only wants hardness on the nose, where it hits the ramp. Sizing with a push through sizer wouldn't touch this area of the boolit.

[plainsman456]

I tried them that way once for a rifle.

made no difference so i quit.

And for my 45 and 40 i just air cool.

[Bzcraig]

50/50 coww/pure air cooled in all my bottom feeders, no problems.