Reloading EverythingTitan ReloadingRepackboxInline Fabrication
RotoMetals2Load DataWidenersLee Precision
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: German copy of Webley Constabulary Revolver

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293

    German copy of Webley Constabulary Revolver

    Some variety of 380 I think. It will snugly chamber a .38 short colt (not a .38 S&W) Anyone ever try to shoot one?

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,158
    .380 Revolver http://www.municion.org/380Short/380Short.htm Cartridge developed in England around 1868, for black powder revolvers. It was widely disseminated in Europe, and the .380 Short CF Short case (with a shorter two millimeter sheath) was derived from it. It seems that they exist in version with internal and external piston. When it seemed that it was going to disappear, it saw a new boom and as a cartridge "Webley Revolver" appeared in many catalogs until the beginning of the 20th century. Eley's catalog for 1898 describes it as "specific cartridge for Webley, Colt, tranter and other revolvers. In Denmark the 9x17 R Mod. 1891 was adopted , practically identical to this cartridge.

    Correct brass for this is .380 Rimmed Short, made currently by Fiocchi. It has a smaller head diameter than the .38 S&W, dimensionally similar to the .38 Short Colt, but with a thinner rim 0.045" and case length 0.687". Original heeled bullet was 8 grams (123 grains) and cartridges were loaded with black powder.

    I load 2 grains of TiteGroup or Bullseye and Accurate 36-155D bullet. Velocity 600 fps.

    Attachment 212309Attachment 212310Attachment 212311
    Last edited by Outpost75; 01-20-2018 at 08:46 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Great info - thanks!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Denmark (a greasy little spot in Scandinavia)
    Posts
    815
    The Danes was big on that cartridge in the 1880's, chambered in 4 army/navy revolvers and one police revolver.
    https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/tim...php?editid1=46
    https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/tim....php?editid1=8

    The oiginal .380 CF short was a heeled bullet running (suprice) .380".
    I use 38SPL brass cut down to .688"
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN0303 s.jpg 
Views:	28 
Size:	30.8 KB 
ID:	212312
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	British .38 Short s.jpg 
Views:	47 
Size:	34.2 KB 
ID:	212313

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,167
    I have taken some .38 Special cases, in the past, and cut the cases down to size and loaded up a few rounds, in order to fit my little single shot .380 short CF caliber pistol. It is a weird kind of a vest pocket gun. I never actually tried shooting it. But it ought to work OK.

    Last edited by Earlwb; 01-21-2018 at 12:26 PM. Reason: typo correction

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,900
    A picture would be interesting, but this sounds like a recognised type (though a small-workshop product with considerable variation) often termed the German constabulary revolver. While it does somewhat resemble the Webley Metropolitan Police and Royal Irish Constabulary models, it isn't fair to call it a copy. One feature which probably derives from the military Reichsrevolver is a lever safety on the left behind the hammer, which isn't really a safety in itself. It just prevents the hammer from moving out of the half-cock position.

    They are usually well made, and despite ejecting and loading a chamber at a time, considerably more modern than their contemporary, the Reichsrevolver. The latter was far more primitive than the revolvers already adopted by France, Italy and others. It is single-action only, with a long barrel and fine, easily damaged sights. Butit uses an inside lubed cartridge almost identical to the .44 S&W Russian, and is far better suited to the recreational shooter than military use. I would feel confident using either with smokeless loads aimed at duplicating black powder performance.

    Here is one of mine which typifies the type, apart from being made by Vincenzo Durante Di Pietro of Palermo in Sicily, and a .320. I imagine its belonging to a "friend of the friends" who was polite enough not to want to wake up the neighbourhood. I would suspect that Di Pietro, perhaps like the Germans, bought in unfinished parts from Belgium. I also found online his trade mark registration form of 1922 for a trademark that wasn't on it. That is significant for me, since being pre-WW2 establishes it as an antique in the UK, non-existent in law unless I want a licence to shoot it. I think a slower process of argument would keep me safe anyway, for although the Italian smallarms industry could be... er... retro, it wouldn't that retro.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Di Pietro of Palermo.jpg 
Views:	51 
Size:	37.1 KB 
ID:	212348

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Orange, VA NOW
    Posts
    6,491
    I almost bought one of these about 4 years ago. It was a Belgian .380 Revolver that resembled closely the above illustration, save that it lacked the safety lever. The hassle of improvising brass kept from me making the purchase, plus I look goofy in a deer stalker cap and a caped overcoat.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    17Nut: Also good info - thanks!

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180122_081434.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	50.6 KB 
ID:	212453Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180122_081954.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	46.9 KB 
ID:	212454
    As you can see it is definitely fair to call it a Webley copy. There is no safety. It is very nicely made and in excellent mechanical condition. I suspect it is a guild gun. It has a 4-digit serial number 1XXX implying there were at least that many made but rare enough that I can only find scraps of information. Some of these were allegedly made after WW1.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,900
    Quote Originally Posted by Throwback View Post
    As you can see it is definitely fair to call it a Webley copy. There is no safety. It is very nicely made and in excellent mechanical condition. I suspect it is a guild gun. It has a 4-digit serial number 1XXX implying there were at least that many made but rare enough that I can only find scraps of information. Some of these were allegedly made after WW1.
    Yes, that is a little more like a Webley, including my .32 rimfire, which is probably the first Webley cartridge revolver other than licenced S&W copies and their own .577. You are probably right about some being made after WW1, but not many. The extractor was originally Tranter's.

    I don't think you can draw any conclusions from a four-digit serial number in Europe in those days. It was done for stock accounting, not jurisprudence, and a lot of manufacturers started again after 9999, or inflated the number so as not to show that they had only made fourteen of them.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	My Track Webley 4.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	23.9 KB 
ID:	212490

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Agree on serial number vs number made. It's Hard to plant tongue in cheek when writing so played it straight.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    NoZombies's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    N. Florida
    Posts
    2,493
    That's a nice looking little piece.

    I'd love to find it's brother. I've got 500 pieces of brass for it.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    Collecting .32 molds. Please let me know if you have one you don't need, cause I might "need" it!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,900
    Yes, it is a beautiful little revolver, very well preserved, and for a pocket pistol presented about the best combination of size, power, safety and reliability available for a substantial chunk of the nineteenth century.

    A safety shouldn't have been really necessary. Elmer Keith called the marginally larger Webley RIC the best police pistol ever made, and for a plain clothes policeman he had some justification. The single ejection and loading is a liability only in an infrequent situation, and there were still old men around saying "Breech-loaders? Don't know when you're well off!"

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Turns out it shoots brilliantly right to the sights with Winchester factory .38 Short Colt. I intend to cast some soft bullets in the spring and use the above recommended 2.0 grains of Titegroup. If it slugs up and shoots fine I shouldn't need to worry about sourcing a heel-based outside lubed bullet.
    Last edited by Throwback; 01-28-2018 at 05:18 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Throwback View Post
    Turns out it shoots brilliantly right to the sights with Winchester factory .38 Short Colt. I intend to cast some soft bullets in the spring and use the above recommended 2.0 grains of To regroup. If it slugs up and shoots fine I shouldn't need to worry about sourcing a heel-based outside lubed bullet.
    Accurate has several suitable heeled bullets for the .380 Rimmed

    Attachment 212855Attachment 212856Attachment 212857Attachment 212858
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    I rather like the blunt one

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

    Dutchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Siskiyou County, Calif
    Posts
    2,233
    AF stamp = August Francotti
    9.4mm Dutch 5 shot
    has safety lever on left side
    purchased off *ebay*


  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Very nice. I love the genre. Been looking for .442 and .450 but like the .380 about as well.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Throwback's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sebago Lake Maine
    Posts
    293
    Mine has hard rubber grips, which is one non-guild feature. I wonder if, like yours, it may come from more of a known manufacturer.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check