Starting casting 148 gr WC and 158 SWC for possible self defense use.

[ell198679]

I bought the Lee WC 148 gr mold, and the Lee 158gr SWC mold. I live in California and they just passed the online ammo ban. Wanted to get some Buffalo Bore SWC HP +P but was too late. Now you need to go through an FFL in Kali. Anyways, I casted about 110 of them so far. I dropped one of my 158 grain bullets, from about waist height. Then looked at it and realized. That they were slanted at a slight angle. Apparently, the lead is so soft that it can deform from that height. I was curious should these bullets be cast with a better alloy. And or? Perhaps, I should water quench them. What is best for self defense, hard lead or soft lead? Right now I have them loaded over, 3.2 or 3.0 grains of Green Dot. Will work my way up. I know hard lead will penetrate much better. But is that really an issue with self defense, as it is with hunting?

[brewer12345]

With a modest pressure, smaller caliber like 38 special, I think you really are depending on penetration much more so than expansion. That said, I know that really hard wadcutters like the Berry's plated will go right through a person with a full charge of powder under them. That means energy that is not imparted to the target. So I would not want to cast a self defense wadcutter too hard. Size it properly and lube it well, but other than that it does not need to be real hard.

[Forrest r]

Power pistol gunpowder is your friend with 38spl p+ loads/buffalo bore loads.

Prian Pearce did an article in the #276 handloader magazine (feb-mac 2012 issue) using a ruger lcr with a 1 /78" bbl. He was trying to duplicate the buffalo bore 1000fps load. He tested the buffalo bore ammo in the lcr he was using and got 999fps with it.

He used rimrock 158gr hp and 6.3gr of powder pistol and got 1004fps in that same lcr. Surprisingly enough another high energy powder, titegroup did extremely well in his tests.

You need to ditch the greendot if you want p+ loads with any horse power. Awhile back I did some 38spl p+ load testing in a 2" bbl's charter arms undercover. I see so many threads using different powders/bullet combo's for 38p+ loads I decided to do some testing but in a different way. I used 5 different common powders and did max/hot loads with them using 10 different bullets. I loaded 10 rounds of each powder/bullet combo and shot them over a chronograph. The end result was I got 10 10-shot stings or 100 shots recorded per power. I was more interested in the powder then the bullets. All bullets tested were either hp's or hbwc's turned backwards & 1 of the 10 bullets was a jacketed hp/home swaged. At the end of the day I ended up with:

bullseye averaged 801fps for the 100shot/10 different bullet string
unique averaged 833fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
be-86 averaged 845fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
2400 averaged 882fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
power pistol averaged 887fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string

I upped the pp load to 6.3gr and retested and was getting +/- 960fps with that ca undercover.

Something else to consider, not all hp's are =. Some of the hp's I make for the 38spl/357's.
[IMG][/IMG]

As a general rule I start testing a hp's alloy by taking the bhn and multiplying it by 100 or simply put 8bhn x 100 ='s 800fps, 10bhn x100 ='s 1000fps, etc. While the differences in the hp shape/size/depth play huge roles in how the hp performs. You have to start testing somewhere & I've always started with the bhn x 100 to find a starting load to test.

The depth and how large the hp is will affect how the hp performs. A small shallow hp doesn't do very well at slow speeds. Same bullet, 3 different hp's for use with anything from slow (around 800fps) to fast (1200fps+).
[IMG][/IMG]

45acp with again large hp's for 950fps to 1000fps+
[IMG][/IMG]

Short bbl'd 9mm (3.3") need a large hp, a 125gr hp doing +/- 1050fps.
[IMG][/IMG]

As you can see there's a theme going on, doesn't matter the caliber, large soft hp's and +/- 1000fps.

At the end of the day your wc bullet is an excellent option and shouldn't be overlooked. In the lcr/pearce article he used a lyman 358429 173gr bullet with 5.9gr of power pistol and got 950fps with that load/1 7/8" bbl's lcr combo. That's impressive!!! HP's aren't the only game in town. Also in that pearce article he used aa#2, aa#5,universal,longshot,titegroup,power pistol powders. None of the loads exceeded the max pressure of 20,000psi/38spl p+ saami standard. While there wasn't a lot of different powders used in that test, titegroup outperformed everything but power pistol.

Power pistol really shines in the older low pressure cartridges like the 38spl/44sp/45acp/45lc. Good luck with your testing. I'm sure others will chime in with their 38spl p+ experiences.

[Petrol & Powder]

You've received some excellent advice from Forrest r and to Forrest r; thank you for that excellent write-up.

I've spent a lot of time with the 38 Special and conducted some of my own testing years ago.
You didn't mention the gun involved and that does have some affect on the path you take. The 38 Special does its best work with 150-160 grain projectiles and that's not just accuracy. In order to achieve the needed penetration at the lower velocities (read that as shorter barrels) you need to be close to the 160 grain mark and let the mass do the work. Along those lines, the 158 SWC with its slightly narrower nose may help with that critical penetration.
When dealing with SD and the 38 Special - Penetration is the primary criteria. The bullet must reach deep enough to damage something enough to stop the fight. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and too much early expansion will only serve to limit penetration.

I'm still not convinced that the soft lead, hollow point 158 gr SWC, driven at +P velocity [AKA the FBI Load] can be improved upon in a short barreled 38 Special. However, since you're in Kalifornia and dealing with that absurdity, I understand your quest.

Another member of this forum, Char-Gar, uses a type III wadcutter in a snubnose. That extended WC provides a little more weight to the projectile and the biggest possible flat point for the caliber. I don't recall what alloy he uses but perhaps he'll chime in.

Of the OP's two choices (Lee 148 gr WC and 158 gr SWC) I would opt for the heavier 158 SWC and try to maximize penetration if I was using a short barreled revolver. Now, if we're talking about a 4" barrel, I think Forrest r has given you an excellent starting point.
With a 4" barrel - Get the 158 gr SWC as close to 1000 fps as you can without exceeding acceptable pressure limits. (chances are you will NOT get to 1000 fps) Then find the alloy/hollow point combination that gives you the desired depth of penetration. Whatever expansion you get or don't get - accept it. I think at or close to 1000 fps with a 158 gr SWC, you're going to need some expansion to limit penetration. You can adjust that with the size of the hollowpoint or the alloy. I would err on the side of the softest alloy possible rather than rely on the hollowpoint to limit that penetration.

[brewer12345]

Forrest R, was Longshot one of the powders you tried? I would be tempted to fool around with it if I were trying to get up to redline.

OP, we also do not know what your CC weapon is. In a light weight snub you might not want to got for the max possible velocity in the name of accuracy and controllability. OTOH, if we are talking a service revolver with a 4 or better inch barrel, go for the biggest fireball you can get, heh.

[ell198679]

Wow thanks so much for your write ups. Excellent, information from all of you. I have a big old jug of green dot. However, I do have 2400 powder what's a good grain count? To put under the 158 gr SWC or 148 WC in .38 Spcl +P load. Anyways,I am using a snubnose Charter Arms, with a two inch barrel. https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-c...-ammo-box.html Will order some. Cool that I can probably load the ammo. That I couldn't buy. I was thinking that mixing some standard loads with a +P might not be a bad idea. In a SD scenario. Maybe, have the second round or first round be +P. But that's just an idea.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, we're dealing with a Charter Arms Undercover or Undercover Lite.

Those guns are rated for +P but I wouldn't make a habit of shooting +P rounds from those guns. The guns can take it but the shooter will find the experience unpleasant.


Green Dot is a shotgun powder but like many shotgun powders, it works well in some handgun cartridges.
I'm not sure Green Dot would be my first choice for hot 38 Special loads but I can't honestly say that it would be my last choice either.

Be careful, advance slowly and approach you max carefully.

I think in a 2" barrel you'll find the best combination with the 158 gr SWC and somewhere in the low +P range.

Good Luck

[Beerd]

A Mr. Ed Harris had something to say on this subject:
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...FBI%20Load.htm
..

[eric123]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. He stated that prosecutors and judges don't look favorably upon handloaded ammunition used in self defense as it makes it appear that the user may be looking for trouble...I apologize for the off topic post...

[jmort]

Wrong ^^^

[2wheelDuke]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. He stated that prosecutors and judges don't look favorably upon handloaded ammunition used in self defense as it makes it appear that the user may be looking for trouble...I apologize for the off topic post...

I disagree wholeheartedly on that topic. I took interested in Mr. Ayoob's writings when I was a police cadet 12 years ago. That's on topic I just can't agree on.

A righteous shoot is no less so because of handloads. That is of course barring any sort of crazy dum-dum style modifications.

I'm sure they'd go for it in a civil trial after the fact, but I haven't seen any actual case law proving Mr. Ayoob's point there, only urban legend.

[Motor]

You can say "wrong" but they will look for any reason to villainize you. I always carry with a factory loaded self defense ammo. It just takes away another angle they can use against you.

So the shooting is ruled justified but you loose everything you own in the civil case because the jury doesn't understand reloading. Or worse yet is convinced by the lawyer you did something special to those bullets and don't know any better. No thanks. I'll stick with factory ammo for self defense.

OP. If you can get some Linotype it alloys very well with your lead and will add as much hardness as you want. It's really tough without a hardness tester though because not all Linotype is the same.

I use that Lee 158gr SWC. At 12BHN and powder coated there's not much it can't handle. At 12BHN and lubed it should be able to handle anything a 38spl can dish out.

Motor

[jmort]

Wrong^^^

[Bigslug]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. . .

We're about to experience an interesting twist in that argument here in California, what with the increasing complications that will no doubt add to the expense of procuring factory rounds. I don't think it would be complicated at all for your lawyer to say "My client simply defended himself with a cast blob of metal, when he could have gone out of his way to purchase and import into the Republic of California, at great expense, ammunition appropriately named "Golden Saber" or "Talon"".

I would probably choose the 158 for two reasons:

1. It will penetrate MORE. Insufficient penetration with .38 at snubby speeds is a known problem. Fashionable paranoia to the contrary, I'd rather have two holes than one.

2. In the event that things do progress to needing a reload, a little taper to the bullet aids the process.

[brewer12345]

I would not turn my nose up at a DEWC in a snub so long as the load has a stiff charge of powder and good velocity. You cannot get a bigger meplat in the caliber and the likelihood that a 38 special load will reliably mushroom isn't all that high.

[fcvan]

For over 30 years I have heard the argument over using re-loads for defense rounds. For over 30 years I have been waiting to read about this issue ever having actually been used in a court of law. My reloads are generally just below power and performance of factory ammo. My reloads are what I practice with, am proficient with, and qualify with. I just wouldn't want to shoot a bad guy with the ones coated in 'Barbie' pink.

When I first started working in law enforcement, my agency trained with wadcutters but issued the FBI load as duty rounds. It was the ammo factories that lobbied 'train with duty rounds' because they made more money selling duty rounds vs training rounds. I know, I was the training manager for several years and had to budget for 1000 officers, sergeants, and lieutenants to quarterly qualify.

An old post here showed a video of a new range (1937?) LASO had opened. The range staff mined the berm, cast the boolits, and loaded the practice/duty ammo for their staff. My how times have changed.

[Forrest r]

Forrest R, was Longshot one of the powders you tried? I would be tempted to fool around with it if I were trying to get up to redline.

OP, we also do not know what your CC weapon is. In a light weight snub you might not want to got for the max possible velocity in the name of accuracy and controllability. OTOH, if we are talking a service revolver with a 4 or better inch barrel, go for the biggest fireball you can get, heh.

No I didn't try longshot. Brian Pearce did in the #276 article he wrote. It didn't do very well with titegroup out performing it.

[Forrest r]

There's nothing wrong with 2400 for p+ loads in a snub nosed revolver. Seeing how you have it on hand I'd start with 2400 and use it as a benchmark. I found of the powders I've tested in 38spl p+ loads, power pistol is the only powder that would out perform 2400.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's nothing wrong with 2400 for p+ loads in a snub nosed revolver. Seeing how you have it on hand I'd start with 2400 and use it as a benchmark. I found of the powders I've tested in 38spl p+ loads, power pistol is the only powder that would out perform 2400.

You're correct and I went back and edited my comment in post #7 related to 2400
I was thinking WW296 but wrote 2400 for some unknown reason.

[USSR]

I'm still not convinced that the soft lead, hollow point 158 gr SWC, driven at +P velocity [AKA the FBI Load] can be improved upon in a short barreled 38 Special.

And well you shouldn't be. The middle bullet and the right bullet both came out of a 2.5" snubbie. The middle bullet at 840fps, and the right bullet at 945fps. Both bullets consist of the same soft lead alloy. Hard to improve upon the FBI Load.

Don