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Thread: Well, It Happened

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    All the indications in all the chain fires I’ve had were that the flame came from the front of the cylinder. A couple times in the past I forgot to put grease over the balls. This time, they sometimes rose out of the chambers, apparently from air compression, and needed another push from the ram. This could smear the Bore Butter along the fouled chamber surface and open channels for the flame past the balls.

    Most of my guns have short cylinders and chambers, probably not enough air to push back, and better fitting for the balls. Armi San Marco is long out of business, driven out by better-quality stuff by other companies. I haven’t seen their recommendation for round ball size; each gun might be a law unto itself.

    The cap nipples are in deep cutouts (especially deep in the Walker; needs a “knack” to cap with your fingers) and there was no end shake and no indication of impact on the cooked-off caps. Pinched No. 11s, in my opinion, are more acceptable than slightly undersized No. 10s, which often need a snap to seat them fully and another to fire them. The pinched caps don’t go through cappers very well, though.

    The Walker chambers have plenty of room for wads. I might try them some time.

    I’ll take my pin gauges to the chambers, polish them out and cast some .454”s. That coffee can had better watch out next time!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Powder on one side of the wad cannot possibly ignite the powder on the other side without a trail along the side.

    I'll need to read that article. Paper cartridges during the Civil War for cap n ball pistols didn't have the paper discarded. It was all crammed into the chamber. Only the rifle paper cartridges that were poured down the barrel, and not the breech loading type, discarded the paper from what I understand.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Very odd. The first time I've come across anything that stated the cartridge for revolvers was opened and then discarded, as well as using a ball (assuming it is indeed a ball). Every paper cartridge I've read about used a conical. And the original paper cartridges listed all state such with no reference to one with a ball.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy ofitg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodwha View Post
    Very odd. The first time I've come across anything that stated the cartridge for revolvers was opened and then discarded, as well as using a ball (assuming it is indeed a ball). Every paper cartridge I've read about used a conical. And the original paper cartridges listed all state such with no reference to one with a ball.
    Agreed. I suspect that the word "ball" was commonly used in those days in reference to any type of projectile, spherical or not. I noticed that the loading instructions for the Sharps carbine also mentioned "the ball".

    Not sure what to think about discarding the paper..... combustible cartridges were being introduced around that time; perhaps troops were training with "old stock" cartridges? Or perhaps this Manual of Arms was pasted together with sections from earlier publications?

    EDIT - I came across an interesting thread -

    http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/302462/

    "Zonie" has posted Colt's instructions for loading with loose powder, projectile, etc. Note that these instructions specify "the pointed end" of the ball. The instructions also specify "without wadding or patch"..... and there is no mention of lube.
    Last edited by ofitg; 01-19-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiqueSledMan View Post
    Hey tome boy, I'm not so sure that "Chain Fires" are caused from the caps.
    See this article by John L. Fuhring.

    http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
    I can write an article too. Just because someone wrote it does not make them right.

    I have had 2 chainfire's. Both times it was at a private indoor range I go to. I was shooting a 1858 Remington. I was using 454balls. Lubed wonder wads. And TC grease. The owner wanted to see how the ventilation system would handle a black powder pistol.

    First shot every cylinder went off. Pulled the trigger and it was bang....a slight pause then you could barely hear the rest. But the 2.5' of flames out the front told me something was wrong. I was using #11 caps as I was out of #10.

    That was that. I went and got some #10's and came back the next week. Loaded the same as before but used #10 caps. Everything went fine. I had a spare cylinder so I loaded that one up and shot it fine. The owner wanted to know what happened last week. I told him that I was told it was the caps. So we loaded the spare cylinder back up and this time used the same #11 caps.

    Guess what happened? 3 chambers went off. So tell me how that it happened 2x's and the only common thing was the #11 caps. Each time it happened the caps were gone. Who knows were they went???

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I had a chain-fire in a Remington New Model Army (aka, 1858 Rem) back in the '70's, definitely from RB's that seemed tight in the chambers, but the narrow wedding band of engagement was insufficient to seal well enough, even with the use of. . . Crisco, I believe. I was a know-nothing young tyro wanting to hunt groundhogs but not thinking this thing through very well. Those balls went in pretty easy, but I didn't know how tight they should have been. All six went, and the balls were seen trundling down the driveway a couple yards. Some were recovered and the engagement band was barely there. The mold was one of those brass 2-cavity combo molds that came with the pistol - not nearly big enough, a .450 being pressed into a .447-.448 chamber. These days I use a .458 ball of ACWW and is a stiff press fit with a pronounced lead ring left over, and they do obturate enough that recovered specimens show a .180 wide band at full groove diameter. I haven't had a chain-fire incident since using the sequence of powder, card wad, lube cookie and that tight ball, or a lubed, sized Lee .45 cal 200gr REAL (three driving bands) and the heel band reduced enough to get it to slip in. I have had no experiences with crossfire with loose caps, or even no caps but the one under the hammer. Logic and Murphy tell me it should be an eventuality to anticipate, but it hasn't happened yet. Some photos:

    Soft lead on the left, ACWW on the right. The rifling on the WW ball survived the trip through the turf better. Nice wide engagement band just a hair narrower than the soft lead.Click image for larger version. 

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    The Lee 200gr REAL lubed and swaged to a short SWC form, which also added to the width of the driving bands somewhat. Soft lead recovered from the turf. Notice how obturation made the driving bands wider than on the unfired one in the middle. Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by yeahbub; 01-19-2018 at 11:27 PM.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Good morning
    And just to toss another possibility into the soup... can a percussion cap ignite simple because it is in the proximity of a firing revolver ? Seems I read some years back a worker at a powder facility who was hand carrying a fresh batch of priming compound from the mixing room to the cap assembly room was atomized when that batch of mix for some reason detonated out in the open air.
    Just another of the variables that make shooting a percussion revolver as interesting as can be.
    Mike in Peru
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  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    The arguments arise from preference for claiming that chain fires occur only through ignition from either the front or the rear.
    No one who hasn't staked out a position should take either to heart before ruminating on the likelihood that ignition from either front or rear does not occur.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy masscaster's Avatar
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    I only sell .454 RB's for use in the Walker, since .454 is the recommended size.
    I also cast heeled 185gr. SWC Conicals for the Walker, these are sized and lubed @ .452. The same boolit is sized to .454.5 for the ROA.

    Jeff

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    Back in the 1980s I shot a lot of .454 RB through my 1858 Remington copy and a few conicals as well. I cast my own from dead soft lead. Back in the 1970s, an old timer showed me how to load the cylinder with Pyrodex and corn meal filler so the ball was flush fit to the cylinder face. Fill six holes with with Pyrodex, top with corn meal, give the cylinder a quick spin. This removed an even amount of corn meal allowing for the call to seat. 25 grains of Pyrodez with corn meal shot like 30 grains without. Corn meal prevents flame from getting around the ball to the charge. Conicals were shot with 30 grains and seated to the charge. I have never had a chain fire. BTW, corn meal seems to clear out some of the fouling extending my shooting before cleaning. I still have to re-lube the base pin every 50 rounds.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    [QUOTE=rodwha;4265336]In a recent multi-chainfire incident it was shown to likey be from the cylinder's ability to move fore and aft with nipples that way have been slightly too long this hammering 5 of the caps against the recoil shield and firing those 5 of 6 chambers.

    Why has no one ever mentioned this ? Too obvious maybe !!- how many of these chain fire incidents have even been checked to ensure safe clearance from the nipples to recoil shield ? To me it is the most obvious potential source of a chainfire. I have had to "fit" nipples to a couple of our capguns - no way would I drop the hammer on one without first checking this .

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    I can write an article too. Just because someone wrote it does not make them right.

    I have had 2 chainfire's. Both times it was at a private indoor range I go to. I was shooting a 1858 Remington. I was using 454balls. Lubed wonder wads. And TC grease. The owner wanted to see how the ventilation system would handle a black powder pistol.

    First shot every cylinder went off. Pulled the trigger and it was bang....a slight pause then you could barely hear the rest. But the 2.5' of flames out the front told me something was wrong. I was using #11 caps as I was out of #10.

    That was that. I went and got some #10's and came back the next week. Loaded the same as before but used #10 caps. Everything went fine. I had a spare cylinder so I loaded that one up and shot it fine. The owner wanted to know what happened last week. I told him that I was told it was the caps. So we loaded the spare cylinder back up and this time used the same #11 caps.

    Guess what happened? 3 chambers went off. So tell me how that it happened 2x's and the only common thing was the #11 caps. Each time it happened the caps were gone. Who knows were they went???
    I'm gonna say here that the no 11 caps were too long on the nipples and when she fired the first round - the recoil impacted the over sized caps onto the recoil shield and the rest went off - second time around you likely got some of em seated a little deeper and only had a triple -- whatryadoin loadin six anyway?? thought I was the only feller did that .

  13. #33
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    Glad to see this thread getting some more visits.

    Battis: I really like your wax wad idea. If I used them (I'm going to make some up!) and had a chain fire I'd feel pretty certain that it originated from the rear of the cylinder, because the wax must squish some when compressed by the ball and really fill up the chamber.

    indian joe: I think you are on to something here, about the nipple length and cap relationship. Also, it is crossing my mind that the specs for nipples and caps, now mostly made in Italy by several different manufacturers, may have changed from when they were all being made in the U.S. 150 years ago. It may well be that now it is necessary to pay special attention to this, and maybe shorten nipples, perhaps reduce the diameter of the nipples a bit, just all depending on the fit of the caps. I know I'll be taking a hard look at my guns and treating them as individuals rather than one size fits all. It might well be that a slightly shortened and reduced diameter nipple and a No.10 cap might solve some problems.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    It is a good theory and one worth checking out. But, I think that a cap that sticks out far enough to hit the recoil shield would prevent the cylinder from turning. And, I think a #10 cap that was too small would sit higher than a #11 cap that would cover the nipple.
    Like I said, it's a good theory.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiqueSledMan View Post
    Hey tome boy, I'm not so sure that "Chain Fires" are caused from the caps.
    See this article by John L. Fuhring.

    http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
    Back when I was playing with revolvers my father in law and I wondered about chain fires. At first I used crisco. Then after discovering how messy it was we looked for other methods. FYI, I had a Navy Arms 1858 Rem which turned out to be very accurate. .452 round balls, all cast from RCBS mold blocks. FIL had two Colt .36 revolvers, one of which was from one of the limited runs Colt did back in the 80's (or so).

    The articles above verify what we found out. FWIW, I have not had a chain fire after not using lube across the face of the chamber. That was several years and at least 1000 rounds down range.

    First, we just loaded powder and ball and shot. No chain fires but the pistols would start to get fouled after a few cylinder loads were fired.

    Second, we tried lubes in the chambers between ball and powder. This was inconsistent due to fouling the powder.

    Third, powder, card wad, lube and ball. This worked very well, especially after we started using cookie sheets for lube cookies. Lube was crisco and beeswax. But, it took a while to load.

    Last, paper cartridges. Just as in the article above. We did try nitrated paper, but, it did not work as well. One thing we did do was make the paper cartridges so the back end could be punched out before loading.

    In the end we used the individual loading (powder, card wad, lube cookie, ball) when we wanted to target shoot for the day. If we wanted to carry the guns in the field we carried the paper cartridges for follow up shots (jackrabbits and coyotes).

    FWIW, the only issue I ever had during all that was when I Ieft the chambers loaded for a long period of time (over a month). The summer heat out here in NM must have softened the lube enough to migrate into the powder and I had a cylinder full of duds.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    Chain fires come from worn nipples ot wrong primers not from the front
    Would you mind proving that statement?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiqueSledMan View Post
    Hey tome boy, I'm not so sure that "Chain Fires" are caused from the caps.
    See this article by John L. Fuhring.

    http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
    I don't know yet if Mr. geojohn's methods will prevent all chainfires. I can say that the use of the lube underneath the ball does make clean-up very easy, as the lube seems to "atomize" and coat all the inner surfaces of the revolver when it is used in the fashion he suggests.

  18. #38
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    I've experienced two chainfires. I nor the gun were damaged luckily. No grease or wads both times, the Remington caps fit tightly. After I started using lubed felt wads under the balls it hasn't happened since. If it does I may argue the other way.........

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Would you mind proving that statement?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    He can't prove it because it is not true.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dondiego View Post
    He can't prove it because it is not true.
    Something that is quite hard to prove isn’t it?

    My father went shooting with me with an ASM 1860 Army using wads and got a chai fire. Absolutely no way that came from the front. 100% from the rear. Worn nipples? Caps that didn’t fit quite right? A cylinder with end play that struck a nipple hard enough? Dunno. But 100% came from the rear as it was 101% impossible from the front as there’s just no way any flame could have circumvented a ball and a wad.

    And the only way to get a chainfire from the fore is a void in a ball that left a channel, an undersized projectile, or possibly a chamber wall with a groove or oblong cut allowing space for some flame.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check