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Thread: .45 ACP and Unique powder

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    .45 ACP and Unique powder

    I have a few old Lyman/Ideal molds I got from my dad. For the .45 ACP, I have 452460 200gr SWC and 452374 225/230gr round nose molds. I also have a 454309 wadcutter mold, but that's more for the revolver than the 1911, so I'm not really asking about that (but over 5.4gr of Unique it shoots POA out of my Blackhawk).

    Anyway, I've done a lot of reading, and lots of people are, and have been for a long time, saying their favorite loads with these boolits and Unique is 6.0gr. Some like even more. But most of the discussions I found were from 2008 to maybe 2013. Nothing much newer.

    Alliant says max load for a 200gr Speer LSWC is 5.4gr. Well, the Speer LSWC has a longer nose and a shorter base, so the 452460 sits even deeper in the case when loaded. That means more pressure, and the 6.0gr load is already 10% over the max recommended for the Speer boolit.

    Alliant says max load for the 230gr boolit is 5.8gr. Again, lower than what lots of people are shooting.

    So, what say ya'll who like these combinations? Has Alliant merely cut back their recommendations due to lawyers?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Mold
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    That is very low and much lower than it used to be. I use 5.3 gr of Unique with a 230 gr hardcast just for plinking! I am loading 6.0 gr under a 255 gr SWC hardcast in 45 acp cases and shooting it in my S&W 625 revolver with no signs of overpressure at all. I am using Unique that is from a much older batch though.

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  3. #3
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    Welcome to the forum, BKDinTexas.

    I used 6.0 gr. of Unique behind a hard cast 230 RN for years and it was both accurate and functioned everything I own. But 3-4 years ago they convinced me that 5.5 gr. would do as well and be kinder to my older 1911s, so I dropped back to that load. It works just fine also.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDinTexas View Post
    That is very low and much lower than it used to be. I use 5.3 gr of Unique with a 230 gr hardcast just for plinking! I am loading 6.0 gr under a 255 gr SWC hardcast in 45 acp cases and shooting it in my S&W 625 revolver with no signs of overpressure at all. I am using Unique that is from a much older batch though.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    Might that be a Lyman 454424 Keith SWC? That was another mold I got from my dad. 15gr of 2400 in the .45 Colt does a serious number on bowling pins.

    The Unique I'm currently working on is from a square metal can, so yeah, old stuff. I have some newer, but I'm still working from the old stuff.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    I think so but am unsure of the mold number. I buy my cast bullets. Don't tell anyone or they will kick me off the board! Lol!

    My Unique is not quite that old. March of 1997 is what I wrote on the can. I have multiple generations. I like the smoky blue haze and funky smell of the old stuff when you shoot it on a damp morning!

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  6. #6
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    Look at the listed pressures of these loads and compare to pressures for jacketed bullets of the same weight range. Seems to me, most newer load data babies lead bullet info.
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  7. #7
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    Six grs of "Unk"- as we used to call it- works great in the .45acp.
    Maybe a tad much for the 230 gr boolit but I never had a problem. Welcome to the forum.
    Great folks here with thousands of years of combined knowledge!

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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I load 5.5 Unique for a pair of 1917s with the NOE version of the 454424 and 452-200 RNFP Lee . The RBH likes it too . Even a high point carbine likes them .
    I'm almost out of the 12# keg of 1968 then I'll have to start all over with 2 cans totaling 12# of 06' ........
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The low charge with the Speer SWC is to duplicate target velocities and avoid leading. Six grains with the 225 RN is fine and more or less duplicates or slightly exceeds military hardball. There is no practical reason to go faster.

    What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.

  10. #10
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    The newest Lyman handbook lists the Unique loads for the 452374 as 5.5 to 7.3. I use 5.5 when I use Unique. For the 452460 it lists the loads as 5.0 to 7.5. I use 5.5 for it also. Both have always worked well. I use more Bullseye and Red Dot with the 45acp than Unique, but Unique is also a good choice.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    The low charge with the Speer SWC is to duplicate target velocities and avoid leading. Six grains with the 225 RN is fine and more or less duplicates or slightly exceeds military hardball. There is no practical reason to go faster.

    What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.
    35remington - That is one of the things I noted in doing research. I was purposely ignoring Lyman's suggestion, as I had seen elsewhere where you had pointed out their idiocy.

  12. #12
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    Not to derail my own thread, but what about Titegroup with cast boolits? I've seen lots of people say it burns hot, and it's great for jacketed but stay away from it for cast. But lately I've seen where yes, it burns hot and heats the barrel faster, but doesn't seem to melt the base of the boolits, so who cares? it works great behind cast boolits.

    So, in addition to the Unique question, what about Titegroup?

  13. #13
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    TiteGroup has 45 acp fans also. I would use it if I wasn't hooked on Bullseye and Red Dot for the same chore.

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  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.
    Alliant themselves show a load of 7.3 grains with a speer 230 CPRN so it may not be such an overload as you suggest.
    http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...=410&bdid=1481

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrayfk05 View Post
    Alliant themselves show a load of 7.3 grains with a speer 230 CPRN so it may not be such an overload as you suggest.
    http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...=410&bdid=1481
    Doesn't mean it's right, even if it is on Alliant's website. Alliant is treating it as though it's copper plated, and is using the same suggested max load as they give for a 200gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point. They're also showing the same bullet/powder combo twice with different OALs, one from a 5" barrel and one without any barrel length shown. With exact same load recommendations and velocity.

    Those bullets are copper washed, which per most of the data I've seen from several copper washed bullet manufacturers, should be treated as cast lead bullets as far as loading data is concerned.

  16. #16
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    Jeff Cooper’s load for lead 200gr SWC’s -he used the H&G 68 - was 7.0gr Unique .
    He loaded and carried that for what he termed “ serious social situations “.

  17. #17
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    I will repeat......do not use 7.3 grains Unique.

    Pretend like you believe I am actually speaking from experience and chronograph obtainable velocities with a much lighter charge than 7.3 grains using the 452374 or any similar 230. As I have already.

    It will cause you no harm to assume I just may be right. Said by a guy who’s been there and done that. What you do with the info is up to you.

    Whatever charge causes you to obtain 950 FPS should be your maximum, and for constant use 100 FPS should be knocked off that velocity. I got to that point using way less than 7.3 grains. You just might find out the same thing yourself. Better to find out the right way.

    A hint: rearward slide velocity is a function of forward bullet velocity. If the load is going way faster than standard or even Plus P velocities, it is overdriving the gun even if the load is no more than the manual suggests as to charge weight. Pounding away on a pistol has both reliability downsides and long term issues.

    Cast lubricated bullets obtain higher velocities than similar charge weights under equal weight jacketed or plated bullets, with plated bullets being especially slow in some offerings. Since the bullet is driven forward faster, the slide comes rearward harder. Undesirable.

    Nothing is to be gained taking a reloading manual’s suggestions over what actual results are telling you. Actual results have the final say.
    Last edited by 35remington; 01-17-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by umwminer View Post
    Jeff Cooper’s load for lead 200gr SWC’s -he used the H&G 68 - was 7.0gr Unique .
    He loaded and carried that for what he termed “ serious social situations “.
    Actually it was 7.5 gr Unique with the 200 gr SWC. Both the H&G cast of WQ'd #2 alloy and the Hornady 200 gr XTP loaded over 7.5 gr Unique produce psi (I measured it) about half way between the SAAMI MAP for standard 45 ACP loads and +P loads.
    Larry Gibson

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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    FWIW, just under that charge (7.3 grains) with the Lee HG 68 200 SWC sorta copy (I say sorta because it seats a little deeper in the case than the more faithful copies) produced noticeably over 1100 FPS from my 5” 1911. As in 1142 FPS for a five shot average. I thought that more than what I wanted to shoot for any frequency. 200 FPS slower would be more like it. From a five inch Smith 625-3 I got 1100, 1067, 1099, 1073 for four chronographed shots. B/C gap after considerable shooting is 0.006.”

    7.9 Unique under a 185 XTP loaded to 1.220” in mixed cases got 1111, 1090, 1171, 1146 and 1139 in the 1911. In a 4.2 inch Ruger P97 they went 1045, 1071, 1040 and 1088.

    Turning to the Lee 230-2R, 6.5 Unique recorded from 920 to 960 in mixed cases depending upon whether the powder was forward or rearward for over 20 chronographed shots. Somewhat to ny surprise the Hornady 230 JRN produced very similar velocities over the same charge. This loaded to 1.265” in Winchester cases with Winchester LP primers. The Lee 230 was loaded to 1.270.” The same charge under the aforementioned Lee SWC in a 4.2 inch Ruger went 948, 949, 959, 971, 957. This loaded to 1.250” as before.

    I have sources that seem reputable claim as little as 810 FPS average velocity with 6.5 grains Unique and a 230 JRN. Somehow I am outrunning that with carefully weighed charges by over 100 FPS or more. Variables may account for some of that, but you may find your gun may be like mine, especially on warmish summer days when you are likely to be shooting a lot.

    The message I intended to send is this: if you don’t have a way to verify how fast the load is running, don’t necessarily “shop” for higher end data without knowing where lower charges get you first.

    Suggesting lighter charges of Unique in the 6 grain range with 230 LRN is clearly not running the gun at maximum allowable pressure, but it is very likely running the gun in the range it is supposed to be running at. With 230 LRN of ball profile loaded to 1.265” 6.5 grains of Unique is as high as I go even for infrequent use, and one would be hard pressed to find a use for the load unless you wanted most penetration for whatever reason. It just about matches 230 Plus P velocity with a lead bullet.....and that’s fast enough.

    Using the 230 Remington Golden Saber H.P. bullet loaded to 1.240” over 6.5 grains Unique got 881 (powder rearward) and 861 (powder forward) for two shots. This bullet has an oddball design with a narrow full caliber driving band at the base and a long sub caliber near bore riding nose section. These characteristics may account for for a slight velocity loss compared to a bullet with a longer full caliber bearing surface.

    The other note....bearing surface, bullet lubricant, bullet surface hardness (plated versus jacketed versus cast versus swaged) and seating depth in the case surely do affect results obtained.
    Last edited by 35remington; 01-18-2018 at 09:45 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy AviatorTroy's Avatar
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    Not to hijack the thread but I just bought a box of the Hornady swaged 200gr SWC and I’d like to load up a few dozen for hiking, camping, woods scenarios where I might surprise a mountain lion. Alliants online data for Unique shows 5.4gr. I have other older manuals that show 7.1-7.3 grains as a maximum for 200gr bullets. And the Cooper load is 7.5 which I would consider way too hot.

    I just want to know if 7.0 grains would be considered safe, in a modern 1911 with a shock buffer. I have absolutely no plans of shooting this load much at all, only to carry in the woods.

    Anecdotally, I have only loaded the Lee 230gr TC in .45acp and I like it very much with 6.0 grains of Unique or 5.0gr of Bullseye. But I’m way too constrained on time with a young family to get any casting in these days...
    Airplanes and guns should always be made out of metal.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check