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Thread: Double rifles.. Whaddya got?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    I just have two, one was in 400 3 inch but when I got it, it had been bored out to 444 Rem and the other is a 300 sherwood that is still away getting regulated, both have two triggers.

  2. #62
    Boolit Man GEOMETRIC's Avatar
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    Nobody wants to change anything they are accustomed to doing. People don't like DTs simply because they haven't learned to use them. So how many Cape buffalo do you think you might kill? Buying an expensive gun just to kill one or two DG critters might be good for a rich dude but may not be wise for the rest of us. I would like to kill a Cape buff but probably never will. Africa is not the only place that has wild buffalo & some are bigger, although probably not as dangerous, excepting the Asian Guar. You have a choice, you can spend a fortune on the ultimate double rifle or you can be a little more careful & use what you have. That is assuming it is legal and reasonably adequate. Exposed hammers are a little slower & ejectors make for faster reloading but I have never felt handicapped with visible hammers. My sidelock Merkel has selective auto ejectors & they work flawlessly. One of my Elseys has them but I disconnected them. When birds are flushing, nobody is worried about empty hulls but at all other times they are a PIA if you reload. Being able to shoot what you have well is always better than having the biggest or best gun. A big bore rifle can be down loaded & will work great on lessor game & as one guy said, "you can eat right up to the bullet hole".
    Last edited by GEOMETRIC; 01-29-2018 at 09:08 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by iomskp View Post
    I just have two, one was in 400 3 inch but when I got it, it had been bored out to 444 Rem and the other is a 300 sherwood that is still away getting regulated, both have two triggers.


    That conversion would annoy me, if I had only discovered it on receipt of the rifle. I don't know the .444 Remington, and perhaps the neck diameter of the .400 makes it possible to do a clean job of rerifling and rechambering. But in the UK the .400 - 3in. is one of a long list of chamberings I can own with no authorisation whatever, as an antique, if made up to 1939. It can still be added quite easily to an existing licence, unless you have available only an indoor range or the opportunity to shoot field mice or something. But I take a possibly perverse pleasure in saying "No, I don't need authorisation to acquire it. I already have it." If it turned out to be a modern chambering, I would have to lodge it with a licenced dealer and start the formalities.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    Double triggers equates to two single barrel guns on one stock. That's what I would want on a DG double!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  5. #65
    Boolit Man GEOMETRIC's Avatar
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    .444 Remington?? There is a .444 Marlin & a .44 Remington magnum which is a handgun cartridge. The max. O.A. loaded length of the .444 Marlin is only 2.57". Are you talking about the .416 Remington? The only license I am required to have is a hunting license & a concealed carry permit when I pack a side arm. Ironically, the vast majority of crimes are committed in violation of our firearms laws (typically by individuals that can not legally own a firearm), legitimate firearms owners are rarely involved.

  6. #66
    I thought he meant .444 Marlin, unless the vastly excessive proliferation of cartridges had gone one more than I knew about. A slip of the pen is easily made when there is no pen.

    The .444 Marlin would probably be almost as good a cartridge for a double rifle as the .400 - 3in. I say "almost" because barrel regulation will determine the bullet weight you can use, and if it is the light .44 Magnum-style ones, it may not be quite as good regarding trajectory. The extremely large Express cases originated with black powder and were kept up because the early smokeless powders were unpredictable from batch to batch, and easily affected by tropical heat. (No doubt judging a man by the size of his cartridge played its part in the marketplace, though.) More powder space reduced the effect on peak pressure. A smaller case is usually fine nowadays.

    I think the larger bore and rifling would take up part of what used to be the .400 case, and the chamber length and throat for the Marlin round could be completely normal. I'd be tempted to rechamber for something less modern and, if you will pardon the term, transatlantic, but maybe that is just me. I think all the British cases made for a .430 bullet were rimless, and a bit large in the base for a light .400 rifle. A traditional-looking wildcat cartridge? Well maybe if barrel regulation meant handloading the Marlin anyway.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 01-31-2018 at 09:18 AM.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEOMETRIC View Post
    The best solution with your stack barrel is put two triggers on it. Personally, I wouldn't own a double gun that didn't have two triggers. From my view point, a single trigger of any variety has nothing to offer on a double gun.
    After looking into it, seems there are a few DT sets out there and they're fairly simple to install.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  8. #68
    Boolit Man GEOMETRIC's Avatar
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    If you don't mind dealing with a wildcat, there are a number of possibilities. The basic .45-70 comes in various lengths from .45-70 up to .45-120 & can be necked down. Then there is the .405 Win. that can be loaded with a 400 grain bullet if used in a break open action. Have you seen the Bailey Bradshaw Farquharson falling block double rifle? Very nice!!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    I got an itch that I may be able to scratch next year if I can get to Africa. Does anyone have experience/ recommendations regarding double rifles and/or African hunting? .375 or .416 should do it, but I've shot .50 BMG so I won't rule out a .458 or .460.
    I have 2 Sabatti doubles, a 9.3x74 in a sxs, and a 470NE in o/u. I also have one of those inexpensive Biakal 45-70 doubles, but, it's a toy mostly.


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  10. #70
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    another of the 9.3, assembled

  11. #71
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    GEO, I don't mind Wildcats but I'd like something more conventional (available over there) in case there's a problem.
    Soundguy, those are nice! I hadn't heard enough good things about the Baikals to buy one and haven't seen the right Sabatti at the right price... yet.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockrat View Post
    Google Sabatti and check them out first. There were issues with some of them
    Long time ago, yes. They corrected their mistakes.

    DO google search them, a major Australian outfitter/guide reviewed some of their latest guns and calls them the best bang for you buck, and as a result, ordered a bunch of them.

    Early problems were with regulation methods. You dont see ground out muzzles anymore.

    Even their wood has greatly improved. Grain flaws were seen on some.

    I ordered one last year to play with in 9.3x74r, loved it so much that a short while later I grabbed another in 470NE.

    For African game, do your research, 9.3 is .366", and some places allow it.

    I have a 375h&h in a ruger #1 tropical, and now like the 9.3 better.

    I like the 470ne double better than my .458 Lott ruger magnum bolt action or my 416 Rigby in a cz550 safari

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    GEO, I don't mind Wildcats but I'd like something more conventional (available over there) in case there's a problem.
    Soundguy, those are nice! I hadn't heard enough good things about the Baikals to buy one and haven't seen the right Sabatti at the right price... yet.
    Yeah,the biakal is a toy only. The jack-screw arrangement makes it so you can vary the barrel regulation, thus, as a reloader, I can pkay with it on the bench.. But id never hunt with it,nor rely on it for anything other than killing paper or bowling pins.

    I went back and forth on doubles for a while, looking at pedersoli's, ( but I'm not an exposed hammer fan ), the sabatti, and the valmet.

    I finally got a $deal$ on my 9.3x74r sxs that I decided I couldn't pass up. I read about their early bad history, but also read newer reviews that other than personal preference on sights, and cosmetic wood issues, that the barrel regulation and action was solid, so I took the chance. Lived it so much that I grabbed another in a bigger Big 5 caliber. I must say though, that a Winchester grand european almost made it home instead of that 2nd sabatti.
    Shooting the exact factory regulating load including brand of ammo, I'm getting identical results to the test targets. My big bolt guns may get jealous...

    Ps, on my 'thin skinned' gun the 9.3, I was less worried about a double trigger, and settled for single, but on the 470NE where you are for sure shooting something bad.. Double triggers were a must.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post

    Ps, on my 'thin skinned' gun the 9.3, I was less worried about a double trigger, and settled for single, but on the 470NE where you are for sure shooting something bad.. Double triggers were a must.
    That's my focus for the moment, converting to DT, disabling the safety and possibly picking up a set of 30-06 barrels for small game.
    Luckily I have the time and the money to grab a true dangerous game rifle that's built the way I want it and doesn't cost more than my car did. It's doable but it may take some stalking.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  15. #75
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    I'm still on the hunt for a grand European..

  16. #76
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    Thanks!
    As I understand it the 9.3 is only legal in two countries for dangerous game, .375 being the minimum bore elsewhere.
    So I got a reasonable deal on the Valmet with plenty of room in my budget for another set of barrels or to get it 'smithed up to .375JDJ or H&H.
    Check before doing a major caliber change, some countries have laws that the only ammo you can have has to match the rifle you are using. No reaming out to a different caliber without making the engraving on the barrel match what goes in the chamber.

  17. #77
    Boolit Bub Spooksar's Avatar
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    Merkel 140 in 470 NE, Baikel in 30-06 And a Brno O/U in 9.3x74

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15meter View Post
    Check before doing a major caliber change, some countries have laws that the only ammo you can have has to match the rifle you are using. No reaming out to a different caliber without making the engraving on the barrel match what goes in the chamber.
    Thanks for the hedzup!
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spooksar View Post
    Merkel 140 in 470 NE, Baikel in 30-06 And a Brno O/U in 9.3x74
    How do you like the Merkel?
    Last edited by JSnover; 02-02-2018 at 11:56 AM.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf205 View Post
    My friend has not got back to me with his load but I just got off the phone with Accurate Powders and the tech guy quoted the load immediately. He said to use 49grs of 5744 with a 400 gr cast boolit for 1750-1800 fps. His max was 66 grs for 2150-2200 fps but when I get into that range I use H4831. I use Fed 215 primers in all of the 470 loads with no problems. However, after talking with the folks at CCI, their primer is the hottest one on the market as of a couple yrs ago,FYI. Not force but flame temp. I don't know about the FED 216, but no matter, the unwashed masses cannot get those anyway. The powders we are talking about are not that hard to lite anyway. Hope this helps and let us know your results.
    Thanks for the info, if you friend is using a different powder I would love to hear his load, being dependent on one powder is not a good thing. With double rifles playing up and down with the velocity is also a way to regulate the barrels and I really like reduced (mouse fart) kind of loads. One weekend my buddy and I went through between 300 and 400 rounds starting @ 470 N.E. and working our way down through about 7 or 8 rifles to 350 Rigby Magnum shooting 38 special boolits.
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    Do that with full house loads and we would have been at the surgeons to have our shoulders rebuilt on Monday.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check