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Thread: high velocity pc & internal bbl pics

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    high velocity pc & internal bbl pics

    Put together a 308 puma rifle with a 30" bbl to shoot hv cast/traditional lubed/pc'd bullets. One of the things I was interested in the pc coating and if it "seasons" the bbl. And what that seasoning/coating of the bbl does for accuracy, poa, etc. This is only the 3rd outing with the new bbl on the rifle. The 1st outing was only testing the function and checking the setting the head space to make sure the brass's shoulder/neck area wasn't being overworked. The 2nd outing was to start to form a baseline for feedback such as bullet stability, dispersion, get an idea of velocity/pressure for loads,etc. Was surprising to get a 2" 10-shot group with 2650+fps pc'd bullets.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Finely got time to get back out and do a little more testing. This time I brought a bore scope and took some pictures. Started with a clean bbl and did a 10-shot group with rl19 to season the bbl (left). I left off at 37gr of h335/lee 160tl bullet on the last outing and wanted to test a 38gr load and a 39gr load. The 38gr load looked good, (center) and did a 2" 2718fps 10-shot group. The 39gr load opened up to 2 1/2" doing 2786fps 10-shot group.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    At this point I could care less about groups, these initial outing are giving me excellent feedback. I need to bed another 1" of bbl. Change the scope rings over to high rise from the mediums, I put the mediums on because I was using the rifle to shoot prone. And lastly, change the rear bag. Doing this will tighten the groups up to show changes in the bbl from coating build-up.

    I started the session off with a clean bbl. This bbl has never seen a jacketed bullet, only cast pc'd/lubed bullets and al gc's. It has never seen a metal brush either, only nylon brushes. A picture of the bbl's throat. The bbl shined the entire 30" length
    [IMG][/IMG]

    This bbl is extremely smooth. When I had it out for it's 2nd outing/range session I shot traditional lubed bullets to season the clean bbl. It took 14 shots to get a star pattern on the muzzle of the 30" bbl. Side note: As you can see in the picture, I bedded the bbl high. That allows the bbl to cool quicker and be less affected by forearm pressure (sling). The trade-off is less bbl support, hence the need to bed another inch of bbl. 2nd side note: Need to start using a real rear bag instead of a block of wood and a royal crown bag.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    After shooting 30 rounds of some pretty hot/hv pc'd bullets I took pictures of the bbl. The throat was spotless. I started to see black streaks at around 6"'s back from the throat.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    At the 15" mark/middle of the bbl.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    At the muzzle end of the bbl.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    It took 1 wet patch and 1 dry patch of bore tech to bring the bbl back to spotless.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I need to get the rifle dialed in so I can test to see how the different affects I do to the bullets impact the target (group & poa). Things like testing a .308/.309/.310 bullet come to mind. I'm shooting .311 bullets right now. Perhaps a 2nd coat of pc? Don't know & actually at this point I'm really leaning towards seasoning the bbl with an even coat the entire length of the bbl and seeing what happens. I've done 500+ round tests with pc'd bullets in pistols and they held the same accuracy thru the whole range session. But those were only 25,000psi/1100+fps loads. These rifle loads are in the 36,000psi range & running 2600fps+.

    Anyway, saw there was some talk about black streaks/build-up in rifle bbl's when shooting hv/high pressure loads with pc'd bullets. Figured I take a bore scope to the range and have a look between 10-shot groups and post some pics. Unfortunately I need to get the rifle dialed in to get rid of the horizontal strings to be able to tell if there's any subtle differences in the bbl as it gets seasoned/coated.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Outstanding post and pictures. Great borescope too.
    You are using clear PC right?
    I use clear gloss...I've had light grey streaks before but never black like that. Mine were from uncured PC coating due to oven temp mismanagement.
    My streaks didn't have any substance (thickness) to them like a streak of lead would look...only color & they were a bugger to scrub out.

    That 2717 FPS group looks like it might be promising to test around.

    What's your Pb blend?
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hmmm pics are not displaying


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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by oteroman View Post
    Hmmm pics are not displaying


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    I can see them, and they are cool. Nice work.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Great write up!
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Just wanted to put out there that pc'd bullets with high pressure/high velocity do line the bbl. Don't know if it's good or bad but I do know I need to get it together to find out. Typically when you see horizontal stringing it's operator error.

    The bullets are 1 part mono type, some people call it foundry type (single letters). and 4 parts range scrap. They're wd when cast and wd again when pc'd with john deere green. Then they are sized to .311" and the age hardened for at least 1 month.

    What I need to do is get the rifle and myself dialed in and do a 100 round test monitoring the bbl with a bore scope. I'd be looking for what the bbl looks like and compare the 10 10-shot groups for accuracy, poi changes/group movement and all shots over a chronograph looking for changes in velocity.

    I've done 500 round in 1 range session tests with pistol bullets (9mm) before. The 9mm bbl had a gray coating in the bbl and did show signs of the color (red) being used to pc the bullets.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    When I tested those 9mm's I shot 20 rounds to season the clean bbl and then shot a 10-shot group for accuracy over a chronograph. Then I spent a couple hours burning ammo until I got to the 500 round mark. Then I re-tested the 10-shot group for accuracy over the chronograph again. There was no change in accuracy, velocity or poi between the 1st test target (rounds 20 to 30) and the last rounds fired (520 to 530). That bbl cleaned up with 1 wet patch of hoppe's #9.

    This is why I need to get everything dialed in. Without accuracy a 100 round test would be meaningless. When I tested the 500/9mm test I had the 1911 dialed in and used groups like this for a baseline. 10-shot group @ 50ft.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Right now I'm looking at 2" horizontal groups and that ain't going to cut it.

    Anyway, just wanted to put out there that yes there is some residue in the bbl with high velocity/high pressure rifle bullets that have been pc'd. Don't know if it's a good thing or not but I know how to find out.

  7. #7
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    Great write up, thank you. I'll be following with interest as I have not been PCing yet and have been considering it.

  8. #8
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    Forrest, these posts ARE of vital interest to a lot of us. TYVM!! Please keep on keeping on.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Following. Wish I had the time to do what you're doing here...
    Thanks for bringing us along for the ride!

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  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    How are you processing your bullets. I started using a home made inline gas Che ch seater and checking and sizing before pcing. What powder are you using.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    john deere green that fully cured. They pass the smash test (test 2 or 3 bullets every batch), 400* for 15 minutes then into cold water. Then resized and left to age at least 1 month.

    I make my own checks and use a rounder check that is self centering with rounded edges. I'm using a lyman 450 with a check seater to start the check and then attach the checks in a .308 sizing die. Then I size the bullets to .311 and then pc them and then another trip back to the .311 push thru sizer. Typical checks on bullets.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    When you see a 10-shot group that is 3/4" tall and 2" wide you should 1st check the torques on the rifle and the scope mounts/rings. Too little torque and you get horizontal stringing and too tight you get vertical stringing. A loose scope speaks for itself. The torques on the action screws were good and the scope was not loose. I do trust the scope, it's a 36x sightron that has never given me any problems with 3 different bbl's on this rifle. That leaves 2 things. The operator and the firearm. Pictures are worth a 1000 words and the picture of the muzzle that I posted above several things.

    You can clearly see a wedge shape in the front bag holding the rifle. That's a good thing. You can also see that the rest has the legs pointed up/reversed so I don't tear up the table. This allows the rest move around which is a bad thing. There's also a block of wood and a royal crown bag filled with sand for a rear rest. I normally use it for pistols and it doesn't have a v in it, it's flat instead. When I use this setup for a rifle I can't hold the stock with both hands correctly. That's a bad thing. When I did the 3rd outing I forgot the royal crown bag and used the wood block and a towel. That's a real bad thing. You can't see the scope rings in the picture but they are a set of mediums that were put on the rifle for prone shooting/low setup. When using this setup while sitting at a bench I have to crawl the stock to shoot. As it's setup right now the 42mm bell of the scope is 1/4" above the bbl, too low for benchrest. Not good. I also need to use better targets shooting at a dot on paper is ok but I do have some targets with 1/2" white dots with a 1/2" black circle around it and 2" crosshairs. Putting a black dot in a white circle with crosshair aligning lines is a huge +.

    I'm saying all this because I need to have a setup where I have a good repeatable sight picture in the scope. Move your head around when using a scope you'll get horizontal stringing all day long. A consistent hold with both hands on the back of the stock and the front rest in the same place shot after shot is a huge plus along with a rear bag that's designed for rifles. Back to basics using a target that makes the shooter not get lazy would be a good thing for me right now.

    I've shot flies @ 50yds with 22lrs for enough years to have an idea that I'm need to step it up and quit being lazy.

    That picture also shows a pretty good gap between the bbl and the stock. When I bedded the bbl/receiver I set it up for a high rise or extreme cooling. This allows for better cooling and less affect from stock deflection when using a sling. The trade off is less bbl support & I bedded the 1st 2" of the bbl. I might have to go to 3" of bbl bedding. The other place where this bedding setup really shines is if I want to fill the bbl channel in the stock with rubber. You want the rubber thicker (wedge shaped) at the muzzle end of the stock. Some hp shooter use bbl pressure in the front of their stocks. I'd rather use rubber than make/install a bbl tuner or single pressure band due to the long 30" bbl. The rifle/stock was designed for a 26" bbl with the end of the stock at the 12" mark.

    Like I said I'm really not too worried about groups right now. But I do need to get rid of the stringing. Then I'll break out the bump dies and start truing the bullets/bullet gc's/bases/bodies.

    I actually planned on making a bump die for a herters 9-ton swaging press press today. It would be nothing more than a .311" body that will use lyman top punches in a blank nose forming die. This bump die will square the bullet's body to the base (gc). It will also allow me to test different shapes on the bullet's base. Things like square edges, rounded, concave base, etc.

    But it all starts with me cleaning up all my bad habits and getting 1 good bullet/powder combo to use as a baseline.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bama View Post
    How are you processing your bullets. I started using a home made inline gas Che ch seater and checking and sizing before pcing. What powder are you using.
    I need to get it together & get rid of my bad range habits, then I'll be asking a lot of questions and posting what I'm trying.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I've been shooting PC in 308 for a few years, HF red, GC 2700 fps. If any 'stuff' left in barrel, it seems to make no difference in accuracy. Don't remember when I last cleaned the AR10 uppers. Been thinking of getting one of those cheap USB borescopes, which ones are good?
    Whatever!

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ditto-
    What USB borescope?


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  15. #15
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    This is the 1 I've been using. It says 5.5mm but that's with the angle attachment on it. It will fit into 223/22lr bbl's without it.

    The pictures I posted above were taken with this
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-LED-5-5...53.m2749.l2649

    using my cellphone. It has a control/dimmer for how much light yo want to use. It also comes with a mini usb to usb adapter to hookup to a computer. Well worth the $11 delivered to the door.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    You better hit that eBay seller up for a commission. I just bought one based on your pics, and I am sure I won't be the only one!
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Got one on the way to

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  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    Check out this thread
    24" barrel 2926FPS
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...350-Yds-part-1
    Last edited by Phantom30; 01-16-2018 at 07:49 PM. Reason: tranp error fixed

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check